I had a chance to see the new Yamaha tech presentation....

[MrSled]

I had a chance to see the new Yamaha tech presentation and here are some notes on all of the new models...

During the tech presentation Yamaha mentioned that full wet weight the Apex RTX is estimated to be lighter than the Fusion or Mach Z if they have electric start kits (which also adds cost to those models) The fact that the new Apex RTX is as light or lighter than 2-stroke 2-cylinders is amazing.



As the 2-strokes try to meet EPA they will get heavier, more expensive, and possibly less reliable.

 

[Jimbo]

Nice Job Mr. Sled. Saying that will only fuel the non-believers. We Yamaha nuts knew it all along

 

[GBW]

Friend of mine had an F-5 and now has a Sabercat 700 long track with electric start. First thing he said after his first ride was "Hey, this thing feels heavy" I couldn't help but bust out laughing. Power to weight and Traction is what it all boils down to. Oh yeh, I think the 4 strokes are pretty good in the torque department too. I'm such a techno freak I'm really gettin worked over about getting one of these. I know what I looked at was preproduction, so I'm not really concerned about quality issues with the trunk or side panel issues. Yamis are like buying the Lexus's of the snow.

 

[runwatyabrung]

Most of the research of getting better emissions out of 4 strokes has been done for a long time. Not alone just the design differences. Take cars. look at the pollution crap and how they ran, they were terrible. 2 cycles, even though that companies have spent a lot of money and time improving the emissions, it will be a slow process no matter what, just like cars and look at the money those companies had, but they should be able to adapt to it, but maybe not to the level of a 4 stroke. (with in the first few years). I wonder if they would have to put some kind of filter system into the exhaust? (more weight) sorry just thinking... lol....

 

[BlueIronRanger]

2 strokes will NEVER have better emissions than 4 strokes, no matter what way you look at it they NEED to burn oil unless you put a positive displacement supercharger (to force air into the engine) on them and have an oilfilled crank case like a 4stroke does.

 

[koodat]

Ah Yes, BUT

You fail to emphasize that it was an estimate AND the fact that we have no choice with the electric start on a 4 stroke as we do on a 2 stroke, so by automaticaly comparing the heavier model 2 stoke with an electric start is UNFAIR in my book.

Bottom line: lightest they have vs. lightest you have.

 

[yamahay]

B.I.R. if 2 strokes are so dirty because they consume oil when they operate how did BRP get their 2 strokes certified with carbs and exceed 06 requirements with their SDI engines. The test measures all CO, NOX, and UHC the engine produces regardless of whether it is from the combustion of the fuel or the lubricant. Advances in oil technology allow the oil to burn cleanly in the combustion chamber and biodegradeable oils are now available for 2 stroke marine engines. Diesel was for many years considered a dirty fuel and diesels can meet emissions in all 50 states. Another thing to consider is 4 strokes consume oil also, only they consume oil that is not designed to burn efficiently in the combustion chamber. A 4 stroke as it breaks-in and as it ages will wear and increase it's oil consumption with wear to the rings and valve seals. Because 4 stroke oils are captive they must have alot of additives to protect plain bearings, suspend particulates, and neutralize acids that form from byproducts of combustion, and when the are burned off it's not pretty, just follow a car with worn valve seals and you'll get the point. Go to the Evinrude/Johnson website and get educated to the reality of how the E-TEC 2 strokes outperform 4 strokes in all areas including emissions(meets ultra-low 3 star CARB standard), fuel consumption, noise, weight, and acceleration etc.

 

[Hebi]

B.I.R. if 2 strokes are so dirty because they consume oil when they operate how did BRP get their 2 strokes certified with carbs and exceed 06 requirements with their SDI engines. The test measures all CO, NOX, and UHC the engine produces regardless of whether it is from the combustion of the fuel or the lubricant. Advances in oil technology allow the oil to burn cleanly in the combustion chamber and biodegradeable oils are now available for 2 stroke marine engines. Diesel was for many years considered a dirty fuel and diesels can meet emissions in all 50 states. Another thing to consider is 4 strokes consume oil also, only they consume oil that is not designed to burn efficiently in the combustion chamber. A 4 stroke as it breaks-in and as it ages will wear and increase it's oil consumption with wear to the rings and valve seals. Because 4 stroke oils are captive they must have alot of additives to protect plain bearings, suspend particulates, and neutralize acids that form from byproducts of combustion, and when the are burned off it's not pretty, just follow a car with worn valve seals and you'll get the point. Go to the Evinrude/Johnson website and get educated to the reality of how the E-TEC 2 strokes outperform 4 strokes in all areas including emissions(meets ultra-low 3 star CARB standard), fuel consumption, noise, weight, and acceleration etc.

One thing you are forgetting is that they are comparing 2-strokes with sophisticated electronic direct-injection systems to carburated 4-strokes.
That would be like saying my 5.4L in my '99 F-150 is better than a Ford 351M because I get 16 mpg but the 351M only gets about 8 mpg.
Lets get some EFI 4-strokes in the 120 hp range and see how the fuel economy compares. The 973cc 3-cylinder already beats the SDI on fuel economy and its still carburated (the Vectors average 20 mpg, SDI 600s get about 16-18 mpg). If you put EFI on th 973 triple I think you would be looking at 22-24 mpg, much better than even the SDI. 4-strokes are the future but Im sure the other OEMs will try to lie to us and say that 2-strokes can be made to run clean and are better than 4-strokes. Then, when they are finally forced to come out with 4-strokes they will tell us how they are the best thing since sliced bread. Its all marketing hype.
Hebi

 

[yamahay]

The marketing hype started when Yamaha brass realized they could save millions in development costs by squeezing a developed 4 stroke into their sleds and put their cleaner, quieter, fuel efficient spin on it because after all it worked for Honda in the outboard market. It was also the cheapest way to put new product out there. But I must say I am extremely tired of the whole debate. I don't give a sh*t about fuel economy anyway, never have, and the fact that it's even an issue blows my mind. It's a recreational vehicle that we have no need to operate, that many haul thousands of miles every season behind trucks that get single digit fuel economy. I read lots of posts about drag races and top speeds but not very many about fuel economy runs against the competition. I officially no longer give a sh*t about the whole debate, I surrender to the all powerful 4 stroke, think I'll go outside now and lick my cars tailpipe and taste that wonderful 4 stoke goodness. Fact is at the end of day I just don't want one and I'm saddened by that because at this point it appears that when I decide to replace my SRX I have no option but to leave the brand I've loyally supported for over 20 years.

 

[koodat]

Yup

I am trending to Yamahay's point of view, but hey I am always open to new and better things.

I totally agree on the hype thing. 2 strokes are so easy to work on. The Viper is going to be in my stable "a long" time.

Thank god they sold a ton of them as I can rest easy I will be able to find parts for awhile.

 

[ejcamaro]

E-Tech

2 strokes will NEVER have better emissions than 4 strokes, no matter what way you look at it they NEED to burn oil unless you put a positive displacement supercharger (to force air into the engine) on them and have an oilfilled crank case like a 4stroke does.

Bombardier's outboard E-Tech motors have ALREADY proved that they can be made to run cleaner (in many respects) than a 4-Stroke of equal power. Don't believe me, read Snow Tech Magazine. They say that sleds will be equiped with E-Tech either this year or next. They are also putting up better fuel mileage figures. I still won't buy Doo, but I also wouldn't write 2-strokes off yet. I'll have to find you the issue, it was a recent one though. They also praised Yammy's 4-Strokes.

 

[MrSled]

More Info from that presentation!!!!

Sorry...I thought I had this all posted...LOL

Vector standard (non reverse)
Genesis 120, 3 cylinder 900 engine
New Team Yamaha graphics
Electric start standard
$7,999

Vector ER
Monoshock RA rear suspension
New 4-piston brake and lightweight rotor
New light weight Magnesium chain case cover
Wide Floorboards with Star Punch traction and traction rails

Vector GT
Monoshock RA rear suspension
New 4-piston brake and lightweight rotor
New light weight Magnesium chain case cover
Wide Floorboards with Star Punch traction and traction rails
New GYT-R remote reservoir front shocks adjustable compression and adjustable rebound
Custom handlebar bag with storage and GT logo
DC outlet
Premium graphics with chrome or red chrome windshield

Rage
All new Monoshock 136” rear suspension (estimated 12 Lbs lighter)
New 4-piston brake and lightweight rotor
New light weight Magnesium chain case cover
Wide Floorboards with Star Punch traction and traction rails

Nytro
Pro Active CK rear suspension: Torsion spring with remote reservoir and clicker adjustment.
Fox Float shocks: easy to adjust, 3 lbs lighter
New 4-piston brake and lightweight rotor
New light weight Magnesium chain case cover
Wide Floorboards with Star Punch traction and traction rails
Tall firms seat with rear storage
Tall handlebars
Hand deflectors
Tuned for acceleration with aggressive clutching and gearing
Low sport windshield

Apex ER
New Genesis 150FI engine, 4 cylinder 20 valve
Estimated 8 more peak HP
Incredible throttle response
Engine is estimated 7lbs lighter
EFI: New down draft design fuel injection, throttle body size increased from 37mm to 39mm, adjusts for altitude and temperature, no choke required.
New head casting, new intake porting, new exhaust porting, new cam timing, new sleeveless cylinders, new gear reduction ration, new airbox, new breather system etc…
Lighter crankshaft 2.3 lbs lighter
Lighter 4-2-1 exhaust with titanium headers. 1.1 lbs lighter
New radiator with fan
Quicker and Faster than 05 RX-1


APEX ER chassis
Deltabox II rider forward chassis (increased use of CF die casting)
New comfortable rider forward seating position.
Centered riding position allows for standard foot position and leaning off in corners or rear foot position for bump riding
Centralized engine and rider mass
Rider moved forward 6 inches
Tall handlebars with handlebar hooks
New taller seat with thicker foam
New rear seat storage
Wide Floorboards with Star Punch traction and traction rails
Designed for and easy transition from sitting to standing
New front suspension geometry based on 05 Vector 42.7”, shorter spindles, for flat handling
Monoshock Rear suspension

Apex ER lightweight parts
Small lightweight hood with quick release fasteners (est. 3 lbs lighter)
Titanium hood brackets
New magnesium chain case and chain case cover (est. 2lbs lighter)
New lighter battery and aluminum bracket (est. 5lbs lighter)

Apex ER misc.
All new styling
New mid height windshield
Rear LED taillight: Light and bright
New gauge with clock, larger display, and dual trip odometers
DC Outlet standard on all Apex models
Electric start and reverse standard.
Major model improvements and estimated 11lbs lighter than 05 RX-1ER
Price $9,999


Apex GT
Premium model
Apex Features plus:
New GYT-R remote reservoir front shocks adjustable compression and adjustable rebound (improve handling, ride comfort, and fade resistant)
Ohlins EC rear suspension (adjustable compression and rebound damping)
Compression is adjustable by pushing a button on the gauge and then by using left handlebar warmer switch to adjust suspension on the fly.
Low chrome windscreen
Electric start and reverse standard


Attak (replaces 05 RX Warrior)
Apex Features plus:
All new Monoshock 136” rear suspension (estimated 12 Lbs lighter)
New mid height windshield
Major weight loss vs. 05 RX Warrior (estimated 23lbs lighter)

Apex RTX
Apex Features plus:
(the only Apex model without reverse)
Fox Float shocks: easy to adjust, 3 lbs lighter
The lightest Apex
Low red chrome windscreen
Also available in a reverse model

 

[03viperguy]

wow, GREAT info! lot of little things I just didnt realize or hadnt heard. like the resovoir clicker rear shock on the nytro

 

[MrSled]

Thanks