Sx700
New member
Who's Yamaha gonna put outta business first? Im takin bets!! Im thinking Ski-Don't.
"97 700 SX soon to be retired
Soon to be ordered 2006 APEX
Ditch the
lets go sledding!!
"97 700 SX soon to be retired
Soon to be ordered 2006 APEX
Ditch the
lets go sledding!!
Junior
New member
SD aint in trouble in my opinion, they seem to be the one other brand that has focus, direction, technology, and a healthy R&D department going for them.
either of the american company's tho seem to be somewhat in jeopordy, polaris in particular. the firecat series is doing well enough to keep cat afloat I think, the fusion wasn't the hit polaris counted on tho.
either of the american company's tho seem to be somewhat in jeopordy, polaris in particular. the firecat series is doing well enough to keep cat afloat I think, the fusion wasn't the hit polaris counted on tho.
nystateboySRX
New member
I tell you what!!! I lived in plattsburgh, NY for about 3 years while attending college. Bombardier also does-works on railroad cabs, but, they are always being sued because of missing there deadlines on their contracts. It doesnt look good up here for bombardier.-Garth 
Junior
New member
yes, but BRP and bombardier are seperate entities now, and bombardier corp has the aerospace side backing them, which is huge, I doubt a couple broken deadline contract violations are gonna bother them any
BRP (bombardier recreational products) on the other hand is relativly small, but like I say, they have tech, they've got R&D and I think they have pretty much undeniably won the ditchabanger wars, in a year or 2 the focus will start to shift away from snowcross and onto something else and the next wave of tech will be on us.
in the early 80's it was power, then came the "musclesleds" (tcats and max-4's) then the "hyper triples" came on the scene, which where basicly a muscle sled that could corner and stop, then the snowcross thing came on, given the WSA numbers, I think snowcross is on the wane, question is what's the next fad gonna be? and who's got the jump on it?
given cat and poo's financial states, unless it shifts drastically towards something they already have, I think this round will be hard on them.
Yamaha will either adapt or sit this round out (like they did the last one [snowcross])
BRP stands to capitalize if they catch on early enough to get the jump and the patents on the stuff, that would be VERY bad for both american company's, less so for yamaha as they have a more loyal and consistent customer base.
on a general basis tho, snowmobilers are VERY loyal customers, the industry averages like 80% repeat consumers, which is brand loyalty on a completely unheard of scale.
in short that means that the swing will have less effect on this industry as it would have on say the automotive, or motorcycle industry's.
BRP (bombardier recreational products) on the other hand is relativly small, but like I say, they have tech, they've got R&D and I think they have pretty much undeniably won the ditchabanger wars, in a year or 2 the focus will start to shift away from snowcross and onto something else and the next wave of tech will be on us.
in the early 80's it was power, then came the "musclesleds" (tcats and max-4's) then the "hyper triples" came on the scene, which where basicly a muscle sled that could corner and stop, then the snowcross thing came on, given the WSA numbers, I think snowcross is on the wane, question is what's the next fad gonna be? and who's got the jump on it?
given cat and poo's financial states, unless it shifts drastically towards something they already have, I think this round will be hard on them.
Yamaha will either adapt or sit this round out (like they did the last one [snowcross])
BRP stands to capitalize if they catch on early enough to get the jump and the patents on the stuff, that would be VERY bad for both american company's, less so for yamaha as they have a more loyal and consistent customer base.
on a general basis tho, snowmobilers are VERY loyal customers, the industry averages like 80% repeat consumers, which is brand loyalty on a completely unheard of scale.
in short that means that the swing will have less effect on this industry as it would have on say the automotive, or motorcycle industry's.
aSRX600guy
New member
I wonder about polaris engineering. all they are doing is buying skidoo patents and making thier sleds look like cats. Now they got this variable caster front suspension, and I wonder if I don't have a lawsuit against them. I discussed a variable caster A arm front suspension with them when I did a phone interview a few years back. Poo droped thier jetski when it became unprofitable, another downturn like the 80's, and they might stick with things with wheels
03viperguy
Moderator
I know and talk to a guy that is very smart and super knowledgeable about these sorts of things. is strong in the business and has a lot of dealings with the companies. he seems to think yamaha and ski-doo are the two with the strongest backing. they have the deepest pockets and can take a hit from a low snow winter a LOT more than the others. he also feels (from an engineering standpoint at least) that 4 strokes are the way things will need to be and that yamaha has the best development for them. he is a diehard polaris guy, but thinks that they dont have the capital to make a lot of 4 strokes. one bad winter and it will really hurt them. but they have since started doing the bike thing, and that is going well from what I gather. stilll think the american companies are the worst off.
yamaholic22
Active member
03viperguy said:
I agree completely
Exciter570
Member
Next Fad: Gas Mileage, period. The way gas prices are going (up and up) people are going to want a sled that is less expensive to operate. Gas prices are suppose to increase $.24 a gallon over the next few months and it's just not gonna get cheaper.
Yamaha is in the best position to take advantage of this fad due to their 4-stroke line up. As much as some people believe that 2-strokes can be made to achieve 4-stroke mileage, it's only up to a certain point. 4-strokes will continue to be massaged and get better and better fuel economy. Plus you don't have to continuously purchase oil.
As trail systems develop more and sleds become more comfortable to ride, people will take longer rides and want a greater range out of their fuel tanks. Gas mileage is where it's going to be at, so long as there is still performance.
Thats my prediction, I think it's worth $.02
Yamaha is in the best position to take advantage of this fad due to their 4-stroke line up. As much as some people believe that 2-strokes can be made to achieve 4-stroke mileage, it's only up to a certain point. 4-strokes will continue to be massaged and get better and better fuel economy. Plus you don't have to continuously purchase oil.
As trail systems develop more and sleds become more comfortable to ride, people will take longer rides and want a greater range out of their fuel tanks. Gas mileage is where it's going to be at, so long as there is still performance.
Thats my prediction, I think it's worth $.02
Sx700
New member
Well the reason Im sayin Ski-Doo, is that I've talked to quite a few rental places, and dealers who said they were highly thinking of dropping the ski-doo sleds for rentals, (to many repairs, breakdowns etc) and I heard that Some big rental agency in yellow stone, are going with yamaha's next year. That and because on other boards I've read at least 2 dozen posts about die hard ski-doo guys switching to yamaha next season. All of them were switching because of reliability issues. I honestly think if Bombardier dosen't start building higher quality products that there customer loyalty is going to drop alot. And it just isn't their sleds that are junk, there PWC's and I've heard alot of bad things about there ATV's as well.
03viperguy
Moderator
and it is a shame, as ski doo really used to be pretty bullet-proof. friend rides a 98 mxz 583. has the same luck with it motor wise as I have had with the viper. no probs.
bucky
New member
I have ridden Revs and know people that also love Ski Doo and have had zero problems with them. I absolutley love the Rev and it makes my Viper feel like a clam to ride! Love the Viper motor and Yammie quality no doubt, but the Doo suspension blows the doors off the Viper and the 600 Ho will probably beat the Viper.
yamaholic22
Active member
i am not a skidoo fan by any means, but in my opinion they do make a quality product. They are the only other company near yamaha in the durability and reliabilty area. They take a lot of time in R&D like yamaha does, and besides a few issues here and there, they really make some good sleds. As for their watercraft, different story. Great technology, but those engines just do not hold together (the two strokes, i have no experience with their four strokes)
Bakemono
New member
I think it is going to be Polaris or Cat.
Cat went from $9 million in sales in '03 to $4 million in sale for '04. Those are not good numbers. Cat has always been about making race sleds and if the market goes more towards comfy, durable, fuel-efficient 4-stroke trail sleds, Cat might be in serious trouble.
I also see Polaris backing away from the snowmobile industry. Not all that many years ago, Polaris had a stranglehold on the industry. Now, I seem them struggling to hang onto the marketshare they currently have.
Polaris held onto trailing arms for too long and the '05 Fusion wasnt all that impressive. Now, Polaris brings out a 135 hp, 590 pound turbo 4-stroke and while Im sure it will be a nice sled, I doubt it will give Yamaha's engineers any sleepless nights.
Also, the 900 and "700" (its actually a 750) Fusion in themselves are kind of heavy at 520 dry weight and I just dont see them selling that much.
Also, Polaris came out with the 600 H.O. Fusion that is supposed to be 120 hp. At best, the merely evens the playing field with REV 600 H.O.s and F6s. I dont see people from other brands flocking to Polaris dealerships to buy the 600 H.O. Also, and this is just my opinion here, but the Fusion is just plain UGLY!
Now, the Polaris Classic FST looks nice but at 135 hp and 590 pounds, why would you chose one of those over a Vector ER??? Besides, the Vector ER is over $500 cheaper than the Classic FST.
You know guys, I didnt believe it at first when I heard that Yamaha planned to be #1 in marketshare by '07. However, now that all the '06s have been announced and Ive read the vast number of people who say they will be switching to Yamaha for next winter, Im starting to believe it just might happen!
Cap'n
Cat went from $9 million in sales in '03 to $4 million in sale for '04. Those are not good numbers. Cat has always been about making race sleds and if the market goes more towards comfy, durable, fuel-efficient 4-stroke trail sleds, Cat might be in serious trouble.
I also see Polaris backing away from the snowmobile industry. Not all that many years ago, Polaris had a stranglehold on the industry. Now, I seem them struggling to hang onto the marketshare they currently have.
Polaris held onto trailing arms for too long and the '05 Fusion wasnt all that impressive. Now, Polaris brings out a 135 hp, 590 pound turbo 4-stroke and while Im sure it will be a nice sled, I doubt it will give Yamaha's engineers any sleepless nights.
Also, the 900 and "700" (its actually a 750) Fusion in themselves are kind of heavy at 520 dry weight and I just dont see them selling that much.
Also, Polaris came out with the 600 H.O. Fusion that is supposed to be 120 hp. At best, the merely evens the playing field with REV 600 H.O.s and F6s. I dont see people from other brands flocking to Polaris dealerships to buy the 600 H.O. Also, and this is just my opinion here, but the Fusion is just plain UGLY!
Now, the Polaris Classic FST looks nice but at 135 hp and 590 pounds, why would you chose one of those over a Vector ER??? Besides, the Vector ER is over $500 cheaper than the Classic FST.
You know guys, I didnt believe it at first when I heard that Yamaha planned to be #1 in marketshare by '07. However, now that all the '06s have been announced and Ive read the vast number of people who say they will be switching to Yamaha for next winter, Im starting to believe it just might happen!
Cap'n
Captain what are you smoking dude? Arctic Cat may or not be in trouble but as a publicly traded company they have to publish accurate financial statements. They reported sales of over 258 million in snowmobiles alone in fiscal year 2004 and overall sales of over half a billion dollars.
n2oiroc
New member
he is probably talking profits, not sales.
S
srx_eh
Guest
I not sure I understand why any sled enthusiast would want these great companies to fold. Many ideas from all these manufacturers spawned the new technologies we see today. It'll be a sad day when the only options left in this great sport is Yamaha and the aftermarket, ...I'd personally like to see more company's dive into the fold (Honda perhaps).
harly davidson,baby talk about that,anything but a amf lol
S
srx_eh
Guest
A Ski-Daddler with with a vrod mill, ...Oh yeah!
snoden700viper
Member
Those numbers where profit on the sled side from Arctic Cat. Does anyone remember reading an article from Cat that said, "we are a 4 wheeler company that makes snowmobiles." I do because a diehard Cat railing buddy pointed it out to me and he was pissed. This is a very interesting topic.
03viperguy
Moderator
I dont want to see any of them die, as competition makes the breed stronger. hell, if there was only one company we would all be banging leaf springs and wrenching out on the trails just to get home! and 3" OF TRAVEL would be considered SWEET!!!