RSVector06
New member
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2006
- Messages
- 2
I own a 2006 RS Vector with 400 miles and it darts left and right riding a packed trail. The movement is so severe that it about wears me out over a 100 mile trip. It is definetely worse when I let off the gas and also when going down a grade as opposed to up. This is leading me toward excessive weight on the skis. The dealer adjusted about .625" of toe-in in an attempt to fix the problem. This did not help. This is only my second year riding and don't drive over 50 mph very often as the teails in my area are winding and only 2 sleds wide. In fact with the darting issue, at 40 mph and traveling on a straight strech, sometimes the sled feels like it's going to jump right off the trail. I have been doing some research and found this website. Can you offer me some adjustments that I can do myself? I'd like to do it by process of elimination where I make a change then take it out on the trail to measure the effectiveness. Sorry I've been so long winded but I payed a lot for this sled and didn't expect this!! It hasn't been much fun riding thus far.
98srx6
New member
http://www.totallyamaha.net/forums/search.php?searchid=244257
http://www.totallyamaha.com/snowmobiles/aaTECH/darting.htm
Also, click on the TY 4 Stroke Forum button on the top of this page. There is a ton of info of info on your sled there.
http://www.totallyamaha.com/snowmobiles/aaTECH/darting.htm
Also, click on the TY 4 Stroke Forum button on the top of this page. There is a ton of info of info on your sled there.
RSVector06 said:
What????? 5/8 toe-in????? This seems like a bad idea to me.
That's from this tech article:betheviper said:
http://www.totallyamaha.com/snowmobiles/aaTECH/Ski_Alignment/Ski_Alignment2.htm
That article is for the Pro-action body sleds but the toe numbers should be comparable.
vmaxjohn
New member
Ok....toe in, not good, eh. A lot of toe out isn't either, and the aggressive skis you've got, I'm thinkingsetting your toe to 0 would be just about right, that way the skis are heading in the same direction!
How much do you weigh? I'm thinking you don't have enough sit in in the skid to take some weight off the FRONT of the skis. The quickest and easiest way to correct this is to set up the ski bumpers for your sled, with you on it.
The article in the Tech section on darting will learn ya what I went through, as well as many others here. It might not take a big shim to accomplish the ride you should be getting, but this is an area that is a 'one size fits all' deal, and each sled and rider is different.
I'd start by looking at your wear bar wear pattern. If it's front biased, then you are lucky! The fix is super cheap and easy.
Good luck!
How much do you weigh? I'm thinking you don't have enough sit in in the skid to take some weight off the FRONT of the skis. The quickest and easiest way to correct this is to set up the ski bumpers for your sled, with you on it.
The article in the Tech section on darting will learn ya what I went through, as well as many others here. It might not take a big shim to accomplish the ride you should be getting, but this is an area that is a 'one size fits all' deal, and each sled and rider is different.
I'd start by looking at your wear bar wear pattern. If it's front biased, then you are lucky! The fix is super cheap and easy.
Good luck!
1/8 TOE OUT is all U R ever going 2 set it at. Simmons Flexi Skis run equall or parallel.
DARTING;
1...U can shim UR ski's to help bring them up or become more flat in the saddle. Plastic shims work ok, it will B a trial & error process till U get it. set them up on a flat surface and look underneath the ski, U will C the carbide sitting uneven......shim according to lifting the back & lowering the front
2... U Can Adjust the weight transfer rods, about 1/8 to start or change out the plastic spacers. Will Transfer more weight 2 the front end
3...U Can Take off the load on the front springs, unscrew the nut till there is no load , then adjust the nut so there is just a small amount of load.......Test & Re Tighten a bit at time [1/4 turn].
4...U Can Suck up the front limiter strap 1 hole maybe 2 holes, allows the skid to come up into the chassis and put more direct weight back onto the ski's.
5...U can run a different ski, or run Dual carbides. This will get you out of everone elses track......and eleminate Darting.
So you can try one of these or Combinations of several of these.
Have Fun
DARTING;
1...U can shim UR ski's to help bring them up or become more flat in the saddle. Plastic shims work ok, it will B a trial & error process till U get it. set them up on a flat surface and look underneath the ski, U will C the carbide sitting uneven......shim according to lifting the back & lowering the front
2... U Can Adjust the weight transfer rods, about 1/8 to start or change out the plastic spacers. Will Transfer more weight 2 the front end
3...U Can Take off the load on the front springs, unscrew the nut till there is no load , then adjust the nut so there is just a small amount of load.......Test & Re Tighten a bit at time [1/4 turn].
4...U Can Suck up the front limiter strap 1 hole maybe 2 holes, allows the skid to come up into the chassis and put more direct weight back onto the ski's.
5...U can run a different ski, or run Dual carbides. This will get you out of everone elses track......and eleminate Darting.
So you can try one of these or Combinations of several of these.
Have Fun
vipertripplexxx
New member
toe in ?
If you dealer put toe in on the sled to fix a darting problem, They are some serious meatsticks!!!!!!!!!! Toe out slightly and do the shims to get the front of the skis up. bounty meant get the front of the ski so when you lift the sled, the front of the ski raises in the air with some force.
If you dealer put toe in on the sled to fix a darting problem, They are some serious meatsticks!!!!!!!!!! Toe out slightly and do the shims to get the front of the skis up. bounty meant get the front of the ski so when you lift the sled, the front of the ski raises in the air with some force.
vmaxjohn
New member
Every sled is different, but it seems that alot of new Yami's are having some darting. It's almost always caused by too much pressure at the front of the ski, not enough at the rear.
I would not adjust anything in the suspension yet. Fix this small problem, then consider changing other adjustments if you want the sled to behave differently. Other than big alignment problem, you should never adjust the suspension to solve darting. I've seen it time and again.
here's what to look for:
Wish fresh carbide, you should have about 1/8th" airgap between the front turning carbide and a flat floor. This is true until you have a very light, or very heavy person riding this sled.
Read my article on darting in the tech page, and you will know just what to do. Good luck!
I would not adjust anything in the suspension yet. Fix this small problem, then consider changing other adjustments if you want the sled to behave differently. Other than big alignment problem, you should never adjust the suspension to solve darting. I've seen it time and again.
here's what to look for:
Wish fresh carbide, you should have about 1/8th" airgap between the front turning carbide and a flat floor. This is true until you have a very light, or very heavy person riding this sled.
Read my article on darting in the tech page, and you will know just what to do. Good luck!
vmaxjohn said:
Wanted 2 read it......can't find it........Whereabouts is it excately
BTW.........
.....Remember there is nothing wrong with 99.9 percent of most sleds, it's the trail that makes U Dart not your sled. Get rid of the sleds tracks ahead of U and U will C 1st hand NEXT 2 NO DARTING, get out on the trail right after the groomer and U will C as close 2 ZERO Darting AS POSSIBLE.
Different ski's change the rut patteren 4 now, if everyone had what U changed 2.....U would B right Back 2 Darting. Ski change alone will give U 60% maybe a bit more, shimming will give U another 10 to 15% & different carbides will give U a bit more. It will B impossible to ELIMINATE DARTING TOTALLY. Now B 4 someone jumps all over me on those numbers, I only used them as an EXAMPLE...........So U Can Get My Point.
Depending on HOW U RIDE & WHERE U RIDE.........Every set up is different, Shims & Ski pressure & Carbides is were U should start, U might want 2 adjust the Suspension as U go as your ride will change........U might want or need 2 B HARDER or SOFTER as well U might need 2 Transfer weight again depending on your riding style, riding weight and riding conditions.
.....Remember there is nothing wrong with 99.9 percent of most sleds, it's the trail that makes U Dart not your sled. Get rid of the sleds tracks ahead of U and U will C 1st hand NEXT 2 NO DARTING, get out on the trail right after the groomer and U will C as close 2 ZERO Darting AS POSSIBLE.
Different ski's change the rut patteren 4 now, if everyone had what U changed 2.....U would B right Back 2 Darting. Ski change alone will give U 60% maybe a bit more, shimming will give U another 10 to 15% & different carbides will give U a bit more. It will B impossible to ELIMINATE DARTING TOTALLY. Now B 4 someone jumps all over me on those numbers, I only used them as an EXAMPLE...........So U Can Get My Point.
Depending on HOW U RIDE & WHERE U RIDE.........Every set up is different, Shims & Ski pressure & Carbides is were U should start, U might want 2 adjust the Suspension as U go as your ride will change........U might want or need 2 B HARDER or SOFTER as well U might need 2 Transfer weight again depending on your riding style, riding weight and riding conditions.
crewchief47 said:
THANKYOU
Nice Read............ As of 2 day I've yet 2 C anybodies brand name sled not Dart Somewhat. SRX's had next 2 no Darting, my 2001 SRX had some but very minimal. There R so many different shaped skis out there Darting is almost always going 2 B an Issue.......
..But saying that there is NO DOUBT Shimming is UR #1 way 2 go 1st then Ski Pressure. My 06 ATTAK with stock skis has some darting when I ride alone, ride double and it gets noticeably worse 4 now.... I'll Correct It After My Ski Change.
Good luck with your ski's.........lots of good reading ahead of U & there R Pic's of shimming if U need them.
SpartaSXr
Member
I agree with the shim on the rear of the saddle. I have done this on my Viper because of same problem. I was afraid to drive over 50 mph for fear of darting out in front of another sled. The fix is simple and does the trick. I used a piece of an old drive belt. Man it is a huge difference.
Waterfoul
New member
SpartaSXr said:
Pat, you and Tim doing the snow dance yet?? This is killing me!!!
Just go out an buy a set of dooly's your darting problem will be solved ! I've tried it all and this double wear bar system really works well.
flying_fin
New member
darting in theory
I agree the answer to darting is to shim so the rear of the ski is "lower" than the front when sitting flat. The reson for this is called "caster effect". It is inherently more stable to have more "contact patch" behind the steering axis than in front of the axis. A car has this built in with the suspension geometry, as the tire contact patch is always behind the steering axis. This also provides an aligning torque to bring your tires back in line after a turn. An example on the other side of things is a baby stroller. Have you used a baby stroller with the wheels in front of the steering axis and tried to push it quickly? The front wheels go unstable and start to wiggle back and forth. This is the same thing as having the front of the skis putting more pressure down than the rear. Hope this makes some sense out of the issue.
Da Fin
I agree the answer to darting is to shim so the rear of the ski is "lower" than the front when sitting flat. The reson for this is called "caster effect". It is inherently more stable to have more "contact patch" behind the steering axis than in front of the axis. A car has this built in with the suspension geometry, as the tire contact patch is always behind the steering axis. This also provides an aligning torque to bring your tires back in line after a turn. An example on the other side of things is a baby stroller. Have you used a baby stroller with the wheels in front of the steering axis and tried to push it quickly? The front wheels go unstable and start to wiggle back and forth. This is the same thing as having the front of the skis putting more pressure down than the rear. Hope this makes some sense out of the issue.
Da Fin
ecopter
New member
I curse the day they invented the twin keel ski. My sled skis will inherently follow any track made by those skis. I suppose I could join the crowd, but then the single keelers would be cursing me. Bounty's right, on a freshly groomed trail, a sled will usually not dart. Just last week I got off the trail to let a groomer pass. Once I got on it, it was smooth sailing until I came upon just one sled that was on the trail in front of me after he too let the groomer pass; a Skidoo with the dual keels. One set of ski tracks on a groomed trail and my sled immediately started darting in his tracks. I hate those things even if they are the cat's meow!
Jon
Jon
Waterfoul
New member
ecopter said:
They are NOT the cat's meow.... at least not in my opinion. Say it with me:
PUSH IN THE CORNERS
RSVector06
New member
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2006
- Messages
- 2
Viper/98/Crew/Bounty/Vmax/Viper,
I looked at the wear bars over the weekend. 1/4" gap between the floor and back of bar. Set a 1/4" shim behind stylus of that ski and it looked good. I'm going to start with the shim method and adjust from there. I appreciate the help from all of you. The "Skinny on Darting" article was excellent. Now all I need is snow. North Central PA trails are icy. I liked the meatsticks comment. The dealer hasn't been very helpfull.
Thanks Again,
RSVector06
I looked at the wear bars over the weekend. 1/4" gap between the floor and back of bar. Set a 1/4" shim behind stylus of that ski and it looked good. I'm going to start with the shim method and adjust from there. I appreciate the help from all of you. The "Skinny on Darting" article was excellent. Now all I need is snow. North Central PA trails are icy. I liked the meatsticks comment. The dealer hasn't been very helpfull.
Thanks Again,
RSVector06
n2oiroc
New member
i totally agree with both of you. i ride with a guy that has a mxz with precisions, they push bad and i hate following his tracks! if he ever lost me i could close my eyes, let go of my bars and i would find him easily! lol!Waterfoul said:
vmaxjohn
New member
This is a great thread!lol
I can make any sled with good alignment dart, regardless of ski design or material. I do believe the opposite is true, no sled will dart if the SKI RUNNER PRESSURE is set up correctly, and it rarely is from the factory.
I'm not sure why the sled makers get this wrong so often, perhaps they are grooming their test trails far too often!
If the cure for darting is perfect trails...buy your own groomer and pay someone to drive in front of you.
Why is it that some folks just want to make things difficult and shun such a simple and free fix as the lonesome shim?!
I've known quite a few guys who swap other brands skis onto their Yamahas. The guys who've had the best luck had SX's, short travel sleds. When yamaha decided to use the same ski bumper for long travel sleds...things got dicey. If a sled had alot of sit in, it was usually ok. If a light weight rider/stiff preload combo happened, guess what! Too much front biased SKI RUNNER PRESSURE.
Go grocery shopping, make motor noises when pushing the cart around. Pay attention to the front wheels, 'casters'. Like the mucho wise Flying Fin says (long time no see buddy!), the wheels are free to move away from the direction of force. They want to go anywhere but forward! They instead, go in the opposite direction.
Your skis want to do the same thing, since they pivot at the spindle. put more pressure in front of the spindle (center of axis) and the front of the skis want to go in the opposite direction of travel! If not for tie rods, you holding the bars, those skis would flip right around, just like supermarket shopping cart casters.
But, the good news is that once you place slightly more SKI RUNNER PRESSURE behind the spindle, that ski will 'ignore' all ruts smaller than the total width of the ski. If you've got a 5" wide ski, and follow my 7" wide skis, you will probably follow along my track, but only in deep, loose snow.
On typical trails, where almost all darting occurs, a properly set up ski will simply 'slice' into ruts, creating it's own groove directly under the spindle and rearward. This means no rut will greatly affect the skis direction, as it's constantly making it's own rut to follow. I have yet to see how more or less overall weight will help or hurt this type of problem.
With that said, some ski designs will feel 'nervous'. Rocker skis, while providing an easier effort to turn when stopped or during slow speeds, tends to react more violently to ruts than a flat ski, like a C&A Pro. This has less to do with the front of the ski than the rear. It's the center and rearward that we need to go down the trail in a reasonable fashion, and the front gets us over edges and snowbanks.
I think the factory GYT type skis are some of the most nervous feeling of the stock skis. The Viper and more recent versions of those seem to be a decent compromise, although I love my C&A's. Flat as a board!
One final thought about dual runner skis. Simmons came out with them for mountain guys, and they sure do work well in those types of conditions. But put them on a flat trail, and you only have ONE HALF of the ski working for you in a turn. This totally negates the advantage of dual runners. The reason Skidoo went with a similar design is because they realized that they cannot control how much the rider weighs, and instead of sweating the hassle of actually designing a working paramater with ski bumpers, they went with a popular design that supposedly eliminated darting.
I've ridden behind groups of skidoos with dual runner skis, the first one is usually ok, the rest dart like no tomorrow, because Skidoo didn't do it's homework.
Remember when Polaris began using the M10 skid? Those sleds rear bumper height was a full 1" higher than the previous model year. I met and talked to several of these guys who complained of darting. AFter some quick research, I found that Polaris used the same front end parts, ski bumpers included for those longer travel sleds. A small shim fixed it!
By the way, the Dooly style wear bars are trouble waiting to happen in my opinion. once the soft steel wears between the bars, they're going to come off, you'll leave them on the trail, and wind up with no control and worn out skis. That glass is half empty in my opinion. Why put an expensive band aid on a free-to-fix problem?
I sacrificed some chicken wings to the snow gods tonight, here's to you guys!
I can make any sled with good alignment dart, regardless of ski design or material. I do believe the opposite is true, no sled will dart if the SKI RUNNER PRESSURE is set up correctly, and it rarely is from the factory.
I'm not sure why the sled makers get this wrong so often, perhaps they are grooming their test trails far too often!
If the cure for darting is perfect trails...buy your own groomer and pay someone to drive in front of you.
Why is it that some folks just want to make things difficult and shun such a simple and free fix as the lonesome shim?!
I've known quite a few guys who swap other brands skis onto their Yamahas. The guys who've had the best luck had SX's, short travel sleds. When yamaha decided to use the same ski bumper for long travel sleds...things got dicey. If a sled had alot of sit in, it was usually ok. If a light weight rider/stiff preload combo happened, guess what! Too much front biased SKI RUNNER PRESSURE.
Go grocery shopping, make motor noises when pushing the cart around. Pay attention to the front wheels, 'casters'. Like the mucho wise Flying Fin says (long time no see buddy!), the wheels are free to move away from the direction of force. They want to go anywhere but forward! They instead, go in the opposite direction.
Your skis want to do the same thing, since they pivot at the spindle. put more pressure in front of the spindle (center of axis) and the front of the skis want to go in the opposite direction of travel! If not for tie rods, you holding the bars, those skis would flip right around, just like supermarket shopping cart casters.
But, the good news is that once you place slightly more SKI RUNNER PRESSURE behind the spindle, that ski will 'ignore' all ruts smaller than the total width of the ski. If you've got a 5" wide ski, and follow my 7" wide skis, you will probably follow along my track, but only in deep, loose snow.
On typical trails, where almost all darting occurs, a properly set up ski will simply 'slice' into ruts, creating it's own groove directly under the spindle and rearward. This means no rut will greatly affect the skis direction, as it's constantly making it's own rut to follow. I have yet to see how more or less overall weight will help or hurt this type of problem.
With that said, some ski designs will feel 'nervous'. Rocker skis, while providing an easier effort to turn when stopped or during slow speeds, tends to react more violently to ruts than a flat ski, like a C&A Pro. This has less to do with the front of the ski than the rear. It's the center and rearward that we need to go down the trail in a reasonable fashion, and the front gets us over edges and snowbanks.
I think the factory GYT type skis are some of the most nervous feeling of the stock skis. The Viper and more recent versions of those seem to be a decent compromise, although I love my C&A's. Flat as a board!
One final thought about dual runner skis. Simmons came out with them for mountain guys, and they sure do work well in those types of conditions. But put them on a flat trail, and you only have ONE HALF of the ski working for you in a turn. This totally negates the advantage of dual runners. The reason Skidoo went with a similar design is because they realized that they cannot control how much the rider weighs, and instead of sweating the hassle of actually designing a working paramater with ski bumpers, they went with a popular design that supposedly eliminated darting.
I've ridden behind groups of skidoos with dual runner skis, the first one is usually ok, the rest dart like no tomorrow, because Skidoo didn't do it's homework.
Remember when Polaris began using the M10 skid? Those sleds rear bumper height was a full 1" higher than the previous model year. I met and talked to several of these guys who complained of darting. AFter some quick research, I found that Polaris used the same front end parts, ski bumpers included for those longer travel sleds. A small shim fixed it!
By the way, the Dooly style wear bars are trouble waiting to happen in my opinion. once the soft steel wears between the bars, they're going to come off, you'll leave them on the trail, and wind up with no control and worn out skis. That glass is half empty in my opinion. Why put an expensive band aid on a free-to-fix problem?
I sacrificed some chicken wings to the snow gods tonight, here's to you guys!