In a continuation of my CDI trials and tribulations.
how do I verify timing?????
Service manual is not much help and neither is the dealer on this one.
Dealer tech I spoke to said to just put the pickup back exactly where it came off of...well duh I tried to do that, now how do I verify.
Is there a timing mark on the "flywheel"? I can't find one except for maybe the smaller raised bump on the outside in between to of the larger raised portions
Do I need to buy a degree wheel to dial this in properly. I have trouble believing Yamaha would provide what appears to be a timing window for verifying and an install spec and no way to verify with a timing light.
how do I verify timing?????
Service manual is not much help and neither is the dealer on this one.
Dealer tech I spoke to said to just put the pickup back exactly where it came off of...well duh I tried to do that, now how do I verify.
Is there a timing mark on the "flywheel"? I can't find one except for maybe the smaller raised bump on the outside in between to of the larger raised portions
Do I need to buy a degree wheel to dial this in properly. I have trouble believing Yamaha would provide what appears to be a timing window for verifying and an install spec and no way to verify with a timing light.
i just give u the way to do it ?? in your last post
I'm tracking with that method now and will be using it. Was just hoping for timing marks or something.modsrx said:
Thanks
Have just verified as it sits she's about 3-4 degrees advanced so 8-9 BTDC rather than 5. This is probably a bad thing with the pipes.
CDI pickup does not appear to be adjustable, I remember something being tweakable... was it the stator don't want to pull the "flywheel" again if I won't be able to tweak anything.
Or should I be happy with less timing.(actually more)
Thanks for the help so far.
Erik
CDI pickup does not appear to be adjustable, I remember something being tweakable... was it the stator don't want to pull the "flywheel" again if I won't be able to tweak anything.
Or should I be happy with less timing.(actually more)
Thanks for the help so far.
Erik
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8deg before rather than 5deg is more advance. advance is spark before the piston reaches the top. retarding the timing would mean decreasing this number.
Thats the problem with typing past bedtime...you of course are right...sooooo..how do I fix this? advancekey put in flipped or is it adjustable somewhere else that I haven't thought of yetBETHEVIPER said:
did u found any problem on your sled
you can move the pickup coil a little by slotting the hole. the rest would have to be done with a key.
BETHEVIPER said:
Banshee key and viper key have the same part number on yamaha site so the key listed on ebay for the Shee would work(research)
With triple pipes do I want to try and pull a bit more timing out, or just get it back to where it is supposed to be stock? Since I"ll be buying a key(question)
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i think you can get them from hauck.
you will not really loose power if you are 2 or 3 degree off ... you will probably loose some but not enough to feel it
ok, so you think you have advanced timing and a loss of power? so you want to put a key in and mechanicly alter the timing for a electronic problem?????????? what happens if the box goes the other way at higher rpm and you then retard with a key? wouldnt the correct fix be to replace the cdi box then to try and fix a broken leg with a band aid?
I guess I dont follow the logic behind this post or really understand where your going.If you have a electronic problem you replace that device , you dont change mechanicly the engine to suit the faulty electonic device. What happens when the cdi begins to advance or retard more as it goes bad, if its even bad to begin with???
Are you absolutely positive theres a problem with the timing???? usually a cdi works or it doesnt, I have personally never seen one just change the timing and work. You would need to plot the curve from beginning to full 8500rpm operation and check it with a known curve from yamaha, which I have never personally seen anywhere! What I am saying is be very aware what your doing here as you can and will find out the effects of timing keys and melted/center holed pistons if you go the wrong way. I would suggest you find another viper in your area and do the same test as you did to yours.
I guess I dont follow the logic behind this post or really understand where your going.If you have a electronic problem you replace that device , you dont change mechanicly the engine to suit the faulty electonic device. What happens when the cdi begins to advance or retard more as it goes bad, if its even bad to begin with???
Are you absolutely positive theres a problem with the timing???? usually a cdi works or it doesnt, I have personally never seen one just change the timing and work. You would need to plot the curve from beginning to full 8500rpm operation and check it with a known curve from yamaha, which I have never personally seen anywhere! What I am saying is be very aware what your doing here as you can and will find out the effects of timing keys and melted/center holed pistons if you go the wrong way. I would suggest you find another viper in your area and do the same test as you did to yours.
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I don't know that I have an electronic problem.mrviper700 said:
I know the motor has been rebuilt so it is not exactly as it came from the factory, I don't know if the timing issue is mechanical or electrical in nature I just know it is there.
I know that I'm throwing a code under load that I can't replicate on the stand.
I know the cdi is pulling the powervalves at RPM when its on the stand.
I know that the timing is off from what it should be, as I checked it using a mechanical stop to find TDC and then marked the clutch at the 5 degrees that it should be firing at...it wasn't.
If I had a known good box to plug in I would, I don't and none of my local buddies run vipers so I"m SOL there. I've got a line on a used good one that perhaps I should just pony up for. I've been hoping to see an 01 SRX box for sale but haven't as yet( to get better timing for the pipes).
The point of the key would be to pull timing back across the board by installing it backwards, which with triple pipes seems like not the worst idea'r in the world regardless of everything else (timing spike and what not)
If a mechanical problem ( ie stator not exactly where it was from the factory, cdi pickup not quite where it was etc.) is the cause of my issues I don't wanna throw cash at chasing a non-existent electrical problem
no worries there ain't enough snow to ride anyhow
when you say your checking the timing, are you using the clutch, and not the timing mark on the recoil cover? vipers and srxes have the same initial timing but use two different locations for timing lights. i think it one was 5deg and one was 10deg. read off the little window on the flywheel. just thought i would mention it to make sure your not using the wrong initial timing. also, why are you not using a timing light to check your timing?
i sold a cdi box to a guy on here that had his sled for thousands of miles with pipes running lean and never blew up. never understood why till he made it stock and rode it. he got 8-10 in stock form. tried a box and milage and power was good. his cdi box was not advancing the timing either at all or far enough. cdi boxes can do about anything really
i sold a cdi box to a guy on here that had his sled for thousands of miles with pipes running lean and never blew up. never understood why till he made it stock and rode it. he got 8-10 in stock form. tried a box and milage and power was good. his cdi box was not advancing the timing either at all or far enough. cdi boxes can do about anything really
BETHEVIPER said:
I'm using the clutch because as near as I can tell there are NO reference marks on the "flywheel", I intially tried to use the recoil site holes but there was not anything to see except that the "flywheel" was spinning, also no guidance as to what I should be looking for in either service manual (this lack of guidance pisses me off a bit but seems typical of Yamaha mentality).
I am using a timing light. I set up a pointer on the clutch side, found TDC relative to the pointer using positive stops and a cloth tape to measure back, then did some math to translate arclength on the clutch to degrees advance, painted a line where 5 degrees measured out to be, fired it up and saw that it was nowhere close to what it should be.
It wasn't throwing the code before I lunched the motor and the only thing that has changed was the new crank and the attachemnt/reattachment of the stator plate and cdi pickup. At the diameters of the stator and pickup it doesn't take much to get off 3-5 degrees so I'm just trying to get it back to where Yamaha says it should be initially to rule out bad base timing as the root of all this.
Thanks
The pick up is not moveable unless you were to grind off the raised portions of the backside of the mounting bracket and slot the holes, so just because you rebuilt the engine wont affect it. The p/u coil has 2 little raised parts on the alum bracket that fits into the case, and this locates the pick up exactly where it needs to be.So no matter if you take the engine apart or not its all the same place when reassembled.
When you timed this you used a dial indicator to locate exact top dead center for the piston??, made a mark on your clutch and then used a timing light to get your 5 degrees?? If you made a mark at 5 degrees you went wrong right there, you would have had to use a degree wheel on the crankshaft to know where 5 degrees was, and then correlate the move to the flywheel or whatever mark you have from tdc. Your mark is at TDC, there also has to be a corresponding mark on the engine or where ever to move the mark on the clutch to with the dial on the back of the timing light.(you need a advance dial timing light to accomplish this task). Do you have the timing curve your supposed to check it against from yamaha or somebodys guess? if some how you have this curve from yamaha I would like to see it. I was never aware they would release it.
I think the reason you cant duplicate the problem on the stand is because the wiring harness isnt jiggling around, when you trail ride the sled the harness jiggles and theres your problem. A chaffed wire somewhere will cause you all kinds of unexplained problems and driveability problems are hard to find as they dont produce the problem all the time. I personally think your barking up the wrong tree and you need to look at the harness, but thats just my opinion, I have worked on a awfull lot of these sleds and have yet to ever have the problem be the cdi box /timing curve!!
Scott, a box that wouldnt advance the timing would not produce any power, retarded timing would run better at top rpm but the motor would be very lazy from the idle to peak rpm transition, the retarded timing would make the engine rich not lean. Advanced timing puts more heat in the piston crown and retarded timing puts more heat out in the pipe! Having said that electrical devices have no guarantee as to what they can do, I personally like the "smoke theory", that all electrical devices are filled with smoke, once you see the smoke come out of them, they quit working!!!! LOL!!!!
When you timed this you used a dial indicator to locate exact top dead center for the piston??, made a mark on your clutch and then used a timing light to get your 5 degrees?? If you made a mark at 5 degrees you went wrong right there, you would have had to use a degree wheel on the crankshaft to know where 5 degrees was, and then correlate the move to the flywheel or whatever mark you have from tdc. Your mark is at TDC, there also has to be a corresponding mark on the engine or where ever to move the mark on the clutch to with the dial on the back of the timing light.(you need a advance dial timing light to accomplish this task). Do you have the timing curve your supposed to check it against from yamaha or somebodys guess? if some how you have this curve from yamaha I would like to see it. I was never aware they would release it.
I think the reason you cant duplicate the problem on the stand is because the wiring harness isnt jiggling around, when you trail ride the sled the harness jiggles and theres your problem. A chaffed wire somewhere will cause you all kinds of unexplained problems and driveability problems are hard to find as they dont produce the problem all the time. I personally think your barking up the wrong tree and you need to look at the harness, but thats just my opinion, I have worked on a awfull lot of these sleds and have yet to ever have the problem be the cdi box /timing curve!!
Scott, a box that wouldnt advance the timing would not produce any power, retarded timing would run better at top rpm but the motor would be very lazy from the idle to peak rpm transition, the retarded timing would make the engine rich not lean. Advanced timing puts more heat in the piston crown and retarded timing puts more heat out in the pipe! Having said that electrical devices have no guarantee as to what they can do, I personally like the "smoke theory", that all electrical devices are filled with smoke, once you see the smoke come out of them, they quit working!!!! LOL!!!!
mrviper700 said:
The code flashing is only under heavy load conditions and as soon as I let off it goes away so I can't really count the flashes and if I disregard and keep on it seems to pull through the flashes and stops as well.
The wiring harness has convoluted tubing around it and when I inspected it when the motor was out it did not appear to be chafed. Sled has about 2000 miles on it. It did not exihibit any of these symptoms prior to the engine rebuild and has done it ever since I fired it up post rebuild perhaps I need to go over it again with a finer toothed comb. The only other change post rebuild is the addition of an Avenger so I'll have some clue as to what is going on in the motor and hopefully do not repeat the catasrophic failure.
If the damn thing wasn't flashing at me I'd just ride it, probably be fine and work on getting the clutching dialed better,
stator doesnt matter, a few thousandths either way doesnt matter when the pick up is on the outside of the flywheel as the timing is picked up off the magnet location on the flywheel, with the 3d system you will notice a small magnet on flywheel(theres 3 large ones and a very small one), 4 total and this is what tells the cdi the location of the crankshaft/piston and then begins its cycle of individual firing of the plugs per the larger magnents length/dwell time for the coils.
Sorry but you cannot come up with 3,5 or whatever degrees usuing a cloth tape and expect it to be correct, without using a dial indicator in the piston hole you cant be sure of the piston even being at true tdc, because you have no way to measure the dwell of the piston at tdc with just a pointer. thats exactly where you cant duplicate a degree wheel.
Look, I am not trying to cut you down or anything , I am trying to explain how you do it and be able to use correct information to solve the problem. I am trying to help you go in the right direction to fix the problem.
If the timing was off lets say 3 degrees, there is no flashing light for the timing curve in the diagnostic system anyways, see my point, your kinda chasing your tail here with this.
Take the sled to a field,lake, etc somewhere where you dont have to worry about watching where your going and can hold on the gas for a little while to trip the code and count the flashes at wide open if thats what it takes, the sequence code will point you to where the problem is in the sled, its not the timing curve in the box!
Sorry but you cannot come up with 3,5 or whatever degrees usuing a cloth tape and expect it to be correct, without using a dial indicator in the piston hole you cant be sure of the piston even being at true tdc, because you have no way to measure the dwell of the piston at tdc with just a pointer. thats exactly where you cant duplicate a degree wheel.
Look, I am not trying to cut you down or anything , I am trying to explain how you do it and be able to use correct information to solve the problem. I am trying to help you go in the right direction to fix the problem.
If the timing was off lets say 3 degrees, there is no flashing light for the timing curve in the diagnostic system anyways, see my point, your kinda chasing your tail here with this.
Take the sled to a field,lake, etc somewhere where you dont have to worry about watching where your going and can hold on the gas for a little while to trip the code and count the flashes at wide open if thats what it takes, the sequence code will point you to where the problem is in the sled, its not the timing curve in the box!
I realize your trying to help and do appreciate it.
I'll respectfully disagree about the ineffectualness of my method for verifying general timing i know it is not perfect but it provides me with more data than the manufacturer seems willing to give,
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17648 (link is to a discussion about Finding TDC and mentions exactly the methodology I'm using)
I know timing is supposed to be at 5 degrees BUT the service manual lists no method of verifying and I can't find a timing mark for the life of me on the flywheel, if Yamaha or someone who knows would tell me what the heck I should be looking for using the pointer in the recoil site window and the flywheel certainly wouldn't be dicking around on the clutch side with a cloth tape, calculator and marker.
The sequence codes that I have risked life and limb to partially read seem to point at faulty powervalve servo motor... take it the dealer they say its fine and charge me 80 bones tell me it may by the CDI but heres no way to check it. Run it up on the stand myself servo motor pulls open as it should.....
it seems to pull fewer RPM's on the hill than before (like it would if the PV's were not functioning properly) but every test I run says the servo motor is fine.
If I had a known good locally I'd put it and load test to see what happens, but I don't really expect someone to ship me an electrical part to plug in possibly let the smoke out of and see if fixes the problem then pay for it if it does (though someone did offer just that last year).
I'll respectfully disagree about the ineffectualness of my method for verifying general timing i know it is not perfect but it provides me with more data than the manufacturer seems willing to give,
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17648 (link is to a discussion about Finding TDC and mentions exactly the methodology I'm using)
I know timing is supposed to be at 5 degrees BUT the service manual lists no method of verifying and I can't find a timing mark for the life of me on the flywheel, if Yamaha or someone who knows would tell me what the heck I should be looking for using the pointer in the recoil site window and the flywheel certainly wouldn't be dicking around on the clutch side with a cloth tape, calculator and marker.
The sequence codes that I have risked life and limb to partially read seem to point at faulty powervalve servo motor... take it the dealer they say its fine and charge me 80 bones tell me it may by the CDI but heres no way to check it. Run it up on the stand myself servo motor pulls open as it should.....
it seems to pull fewer RPM's on the hill than before (like it would if the PV's were not functioning properly) but every test I run says the servo motor is fine.
If I had a known good locally I'd put it and load test to see what happens, but I don't really expect someone to ship me an electrical part to plug in possibly let the smoke out of and see if fixes the problem then pay for it if it does (though someone did offer just that last year).
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a 7 flash sequence would be a power valve servo motor lock,open or short circuit.
How many flashes did you count? they will be a 1/4 second flash then a pause then repeat.The entire 7 flash sequence is only 5 seconds long.
This code will be either a faulty signal coming from the cdi box as you know or the fault of the servo motor itself and I have never ever had a servo motor work on the stand and not work in the field. Its usually the amount of signal strength coming from the cdi, and this is either the cdi itself (most common on the 98-99 srx's they like to lose the signal strength going to the servo and will only partially open the valves) on the 2000-newer 3d systems its either a rubbed wire in harness, and this can be up in the dash/cowl by the heater control knobs as well as the lower engine harness. I have only had to replace 1 cdi in a 2000 srx once for a servo problem, its not very common on the new systems.
How many flashes did you count? they will be a 1/4 second flash then a pause then repeat.The entire 7 flash sequence is only 5 seconds long.
This code will be either a faulty signal coming from the cdi box as you know or the fault of the servo motor itself and I have never ever had a servo motor work on the stand and not work in the field. Its usually the amount of signal strength coming from the cdi, and this is either the cdi itself (most common on the 98-99 srx's they like to lose the signal strength going to the servo and will only partially open the valves) on the 2000-newer 3d systems its either a rubbed wire in harness, and this can be up in the dash/cowl by the heater control knobs as well as the lower engine harness. I have only had to replace 1 cdi in a 2000 srx once for a servo problem, its not very common on the new systems.