I was in British Columbia Canada last weekend and a group of guys I talked to were running there sleds on aviation fuel what kind of set up change would you need and how would you mix. They said they ran a 1/3 aviation 2/3 high octane aotomobile fuel
redsnake3
New member
they must have high compression for the elevation
You need to be running real high compression or a turbo 4 stroke at 12 pounds boost plus otherwise your gonna go slower.
Aviation fuel atomizes a little better than RACE FUEL, but, a stock sled will actually run like CRAP with aviation fuel... There is BASICALLY 1 kind of avgas available and it is called 100 low lead. or AP blue... AV purple is SOMETIMES available when the air and water show comes to Chicago,,,but,,,, HARD TO GET... Aviation fuels do NOT PAY MFT's (motor fuel taxes) and CANNOT be put into a snowmobile LEGALLY!!! The TETRAETHYL lead percentage is REALLY HIGH in AV purple and is NOT RECOMMENDED in a snowmobile (130 octane) (motor octane)... The lead in 100 lowlead is not going to harm anything,,,but,,,,,,on the other hand, doesn't do much for you.... RACING FUEL along with aviation fuels( aviation, not as high), have a very high atomization point... When its VERY COLD outside, and you try and start your sled in the morning,, YOU MAY HAVE PROBLEMS!!!! You MAY flood it out or even HYDRAULIC the motor!!!!! I used 114 octane in my asphalt race sled,,,but my compression was 180PSI!!! NEVER IN THE WINTERTIME though!!!! UNLESS YOU KNOW ABSOLUTELY what you're doing,,, mixing premium with aviation fuel is a WASTE OF MONEY!!!!!
If you EVER take a road trip and watch the different octanes of the fuels from Chicago to Denver, you would see the higher elevation areas selling fuels with LESS OCTANE... and the LOWER areas selling HIGHER OCTANE... It has to do with molecular weight ,fuel viscosity,and relative air density . I have to go to work in the morning so i cannot explain it to you tonight...
there were five or six guys on cats, polar pigs and doos definatly no hair dryers on them. Didn't think to ask them about motor mods but we were at about 7000' when we were talking. The guys were all in there later fourties and older. They seemed to think it made a big diference but if you guys say stay away I will
thanx for all the info nosboy
redsnake3
New member
nosboy said:
please continue you got me interested.
FuzzButt
New member
Sounds like a bunch of guys with more money than brains.
I guess the bigger issue is why would anyone want to run leaded fuel in a machine where the rider is so close to the exhaust exit?
I guess the bigger issue is why would anyone want to run leaded fuel in a machine where the rider is so close to the exhaust exit?
Concept Carbon
New member
I have av gas 100 readily available, i have ran it in a cr125, but wouldnt try in my sled i would be worried about the lead buiding up on the pvs, ive seen spark plugs come out of some of our planes at work and it looked like some one dipped them in solder.
Tetraethyl lead was actually a good thing in the 1950-1970's OTHER that being VERY DANGEROUS, small quantities were actually good for exhaust valves. The coating that you see is actually LEAD ( a form of lead) and it helps with valve sealing and also lubrication!!!! ( on 4 stroke auto engines in the 50-s thru the 70's).. using 100LL doesnt really do you any good on a STOCK sled.. it will actually slow you down... PEOPLE use it because it is MUCH CHEAPER than VP racing fuels... Its the MOTOR FUEL TAX thing again.. I think gasoline is around SEVENTY CENTS a gallon and TAXES AND PROFITS consume the other 1.75!!!!
they did say something about the machines running cooler because of the lead factor. It makes some sense thats what it was there for was lubrication. They also mentioned running it on the farm in all there small engines.
Godster
New member
I watched some episode of monster truck building. And they talked about the fuel they use and it was an ethanol based fuel. The reason for this fuel was that the engine did not heat up as fast...........
Is ethenol fuel good for the sled.......?
Is ethenol fuel good for the sled.......?
Concept Carbon
New member
nosboy said:
Yes it may help lube when its running and hot but once you stop and let the motor cool wouldn't the lead leave deposites on your pvs and possibly cause them to stick. IMO I wouldnt try it.
Hey and why do you use so many !!!!!!!!! and caps, it looks like your screaming all the time
the LEAD actually could initially coat the powervalves and KEEP the powervalves relatively CLEANER because the carbon deposits wouldn't stick to the lead... LEAD is a LOT SOFTER than carbon is,therefore, the carbon may impregnate the lead and create a problem???? I REALLY DONT KNOW???????? There isnt MUCH LEAD AT ALL in 100LL, so I think it would take a LOT OF duty cycles to actually create a LEAD FILM on the powervalves... As far as using ALCOHOL,,,, there are a few different types of alcohol and different characteristics of alcohols ability to produce BTU's.... Lets say (for example) the BTU value of REGULAR GASOLINE is 18,000 btu's. The BTU value of methanol (methyl alcohol) is around 6000 btu's... methanol will run COOLER because of the btu difference,,,but,,, 1 gallon of regular unleaded gasoline would produce THREE TIMES the power of METHYL ALCOHOL.... The TRICK to using alcohol is, using ETHYL ALCOHOL (ethanol) and flowing it (either by carburetion or fuel injection) at a rate of 4 TIMES the rate of gasoline.. You can SAFELY (I dont know about HOW SAFELY) inject FOUR TIMES the ALCOHOL into a motor compared to gasoline... So,,,naturally with 4 times the fuel, you've just JACKED UP the 18,000 theory to 24,000!!!!! Heres some disadvantages of using alcohol..... ALCOHOL HATES oil!!! The alcohol actually DESTROYES the oil and all of the MOISTURE created by combustion ( a byproduct of combustion) will be absorbed into the oil... The moisture that is absorbed by the oil will act as a surfactant (or scrubber) and start to DESTROY your motor.. Alcohol also DESTROYS the film strength of oil and the molecular structure of the "binders"... NOW SYNTHETIC oils are somewhat better that conventional oils for this application,,,but,,, probably "bean" oil is the way to go... BEAN oil is VERY EXPENSIVE, VERY HARD on your CARBS and you'd have to use a LOT OF IT to get it to lubricate!!!! 4 times the gasoline, at LEAST 6 times the bean oil!!!! bean oil is probably around 12.00 a quart!!!! another thing about ALCOHOL.... YOU WILL NEVER GET YOUR SLED STARTED when its colder than around 70 outside!!!! ALCOHOL WILL NOT WORK in the wintertime..... Now I KNOW I WILL start an arguement after that statement,,,, so let me reiterate..... Your INTERNAL COMBUSTION 2 stroke motor is designed to run around 200 degrees, alcohol runs 66% cooler than gasoline.... YOU CAN RUN 4 times the alcohol (with MAJOR MODIFICATIONS) and get the motor to run on alcohol,,,but,,,, then you are driving around with a 40 gallon fueltank???????????? ALSO a 6 gallon oil tank, and a system to PUMP the alcohol to 200-225PSI and a distribution system.... THERE ARE OTHER reasons why alcohol WONT WORK ,,,but,,, i think you are getting my point... There is a fuel on the market called E85.. Its 85% ethyl alcohol and 15% gasoline... A WHOLE OTHER ANIMAL!!! Could I get it to work on a snowmobile???? I WOULDN'T WANT TO TRY.... There are other fuels like Liquified natural gas and PROPANE available,,,,but,,,,,Theres also NITROMETHANE and NITROUS OXIDE too!!!!
you could go on www.100ll.com and check the prices of 100 lowlead from the airport nearest you... if you are REALLY INTERESTED in knowing the rules... 100ll does NOT PAY motor fuel taxes and they DO NOT HAVE to sell it to you.... Some places WILL and CAN sell it to you IF you operate the vehicle on a DRAGSTRIP or like the farm people buy their fuel for OFFROAD ONLY!!! 95% of my sledding is through cornfields and christmas tree farms and VERY little on PUBLIC ROADS!! BUT,,, according to the government (so they can get the tax money) the TRAIL SYSTEMS are NOT CONSIDERED private land ( another thing to fight about???) so.. you have to pay FULL PRICE unless you go to the station with a fuel caddy and take it home in your pickup truck!!!! Another problem is the terrorist thing going on at airports lately... They probably wont even let you on their property without some kind of Identification!!! so,,,, trying to find 100ll is getting harder and harder.. i THINK i can still get it in Chicago (midway) but I havent tried in a while.... VERY FEW Gas stations sell torco fuels and rocket brand,,, But I'd HAVE TO LOOK INTO what there selling because I have BOUGHT 100ll from a pump that said CAM 2 RACING 108 octane but was really 100ll... Fuel companies use the R+M divided by 2 equation to come up with RATED OCTANE NUMBERS and 100ll and VP fuels DON'T DO THAT!!! Like I said ( I think) there is also A&P PURPLE (130 octane) available in the summertime,, but,,, you guys don't have anything you could even put that stuff in!!!! (niether do I)
toydoc
Member
Alcohol can be a pain to set up. But it will work just fine, summer, winter...all the time.
It takes setup time and working past issues. But it's no more of a pain then having a GOOD running NOS system. Both have a temp they work best at (NOS & alcohol) both have timing, compression and fuel flow they work best at.
I'd say the ATV guys are ahead of us sled guys on the "how too" of alcohol. Go out on the ice and 50% of the Hot Rod quads are running alcohol...and they are fast.
It takes setup time and working past issues. But it's no more of a pain then having a GOOD running NOS system. Both have a temp they work best at (NOS & alcohol) both have timing, compression and fuel flow they work best at.
I'd say the ATV guys are ahead of us sled guys on the "how too" of alcohol. Go out on the ice and 50% of the Hot Rod quads are running alcohol...and they are fast.
you can use alcohol for dragracing, this is true.. As far as the trail riding issue,, I would NOT recommend alcohol!!!! Its a PAIN in the butt trying to get an alcohol sled started when its 10 below zero outside!!!!! BIGTIME PAIN IN THE BUTT.. As far as NITROMETHANE is concerned... You need to take the sled from a HEATED TRAILER (a well heated trailer too) and start it up when its WARM to keep the nitromethane from hydraulicing your motor!!!! Alcohol carbs tend to FREEZE UP REAL BAD because of the running temperature of the engine and the characteristics of ALCOHOL!!!! I'm sorry TOYDOC,,, but I don't agree with the "But it will work just fine, summer, winter... all the time". Its NOT going to work FINE (without major problems) in a snowmobile application on a trail!!!
As far as the CAPITAL LETTERS, and LOOKING LIKE i am SCREAMING all the time.. PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM graduate!!!!! Need I say more?????