So draining your fuel tanks may not be doing what you think it does(?)................
Mechanics see ethanol damaging small engines
Fuel blend, already implicated in high food prices, linked to rise in repairs
By Alex Johnson, Reporter
MSNBC
updated 2 hours, 47 minutes ago
Rick Kitchings has been a small-engine mechanic for about 30 years, and he's been busier than ever lately. Recently, a customer came into his shop in Savannah, Ga., with a string trimmer that had barely been used. "It looked like it just came off the showroom floor, but the motor was absolutely shot, absolutely worn out," Kitchings said. The owner had fueled the trimmer with an gasoline-ethanol blend, which is becoming increasingly common thanks to a federal mandate to convert to biofuels.
Although the Web is rife with complaints from car owners who say ethanol damaged their engines, ethanol producers and automakers say it's safe to use in cars. But smaller engines — the two-cycle utility engines in lawnmowers, chain saws and outboard boat motors — are another story.
Benjamin Mallisham, owner of a lawnmower repair shop in Tuscaloosa, Ala., said at least 40 percent of the lawnmower engines he repairs these days have been damaged by ethanol.
"When you put that ethanol in here, it eats up the insides or rusts them out," Mallisham said. "All the rubber gaskets and parts — it eats those up."
The sludge problem:
Auto mechanics say the same thing takes place in car engines, where debris dislodged by ethanol in gas station fuel tanks can gum things up. But car engines are highly sophisticated; especially in later models, they're equipped to comfortably handle the fallout of ethanol-blended gas, mechanics said.
The Renewable Fuels Association, a trade group for ethanol producers based in Washington, says there's no evidence that ethanol can damage smaller engines, either.
"Tests completed on lawnmowers, chainsaws, weed trimmers and blower vacs with ethanol fuels showed no engine failures, no unscheduled maintenance and good performance," the association said.
But mechanics across the country insist that as gasoline blended with ethanol takes over in more gas stations, lawnmowers and boat motors everywhere are choking.
"They're starving for gas, because the little needle holes in them are stopped up with the gel that happens when that stuff breaks down," Mallisham said. "It stops them up so it can't run."
Here's what happens: In smaller engines, ethanol can create a chain reaction of events that end up clogging valves and rusting out small metal parts — including, crucially, carburetors.
"When you mix ethanol with your fuel, you've now put a chemical substance in there that's going to attract moisture, which is going to promote a quicker deterioration of the fuel that you have," said Bob Magnotti, owner of Magnotti's Small Engine Service in Roanoke, Va. In effect, said Doug Ryms, a mechanic at Como Mower Service in Columbus, Ohio, "the alcohol actually dissipates the oil. So on a two-cycle engine, you're lubricating the engine, but the oil is being pushed away, so it's actually not lubricating the engine."
That creates a gummy residue, called shellack, that clogs filters and hoses. And it does no good to follow the rocking-chair wisdom that says you'll be fine if you drain the tank before you gas it back up. "People will tell you you can take the gas out of them and it won't happen, but it's the residue that does the damage," Mallisham said.
Ethanol already under pressure:
Most gasoline sold in the United States is now mixed with up to 10 percent ethanol, according to industry estimates. Use of the blended fuel, often called E10, has grown with a federal mandate designed to boost the levels of renewable fuels at the pump. In many areas, it's the only gasoline widely sold.
The fuel blend has been the focus of debate in recent months as analysts and some farmers say the diversion of corn to ethanol production has led to higher prices for corn in its use as a food crop. The Environmental Protection Agency is considering a request for a temporary 50 percent cut in new mandates for ethanol production because of concern that they are helping drive up food costs.
In a study released this week, researchers at Purdue University in Indiana found that corn prices had risen to $4 a bushel, the highest in a decade, largely because of the higher prices farmers can demand from fuel producers.
"Three dollars was just because the price of oil went up and the market demanded more ethanol to substitute for gasoline," said Wallace E. Tyner, co-director of Purdue's Center for Global Trade Analysis.
David Summers, a biofuels researcher at Missouri University of Science and Technology in Rolla, said that while ethanol was cheaper to produce than pure gasoline because it is subsidized, vehicles may also get fewer miles to the gallon.
"It was the wonder fuel to get us out of trouble — and it won't," he said. When you add in its tendency to damage some engines, many mechanics and green fuel advocates are asking whether ethanol is worth it.
"There is no massive PR machine working to point out the downsides of ethanol, like there is on the other side," said Christa Westerberg, a lawyer in Stoughton, Wis., who has represented opponents of ethanol plants in Wisconsin.
Rick Kitchings, the mechanic in Georgia, said consumers simply should insist on pure gasoline for their small utility engines.
"Theoretically, avoid ethanol," he said. "Avoid ethanol."
Mechanics see ethanol damaging small engines
Fuel blend, already implicated in high food prices, linked to rise in repairs
By Alex Johnson, Reporter
MSNBC
updated 2 hours, 47 minutes ago
Rick Kitchings has been a small-engine mechanic for about 30 years, and he's been busier than ever lately. Recently, a customer came into his shop in Savannah, Ga., with a string trimmer that had barely been used. "It looked like it just came off the showroom floor, but the motor was absolutely shot, absolutely worn out," Kitchings said. The owner had fueled the trimmer with an gasoline-ethanol blend, which is becoming increasingly common thanks to a federal mandate to convert to biofuels.
Although the Web is rife with complaints from car owners who say ethanol damaged their engines, ethanol producers and automakers say it's safe to use in cars. But smaller engines — the two-cycle utility engines in lawnmowers, chain saws and outboard boat motors — are another story.
Benjamin Mallisham, owner of a lawnmower repair shop in Tuscaloosa, Ala., said at least 40 percent of the lawnmower engines he repairs these days have been damaged by ethanol.
"When you put that ethanol in here, it eats up the insides or rusts them out," Mallisham said. "All the rubber gaskets and parts — it eats those up."
The sludge problem:
Auto mechanics say the same thing takes place in car engines, where debris dislodged by ethanol in gas station fuel tanks can gum things up. But car engines are highly sophisticated; especially in later models, they're equipped to comfortably handle the fallout of ethanol-blended gas, mechanics said.
The Renewable Fuels Association, a trade group for ethanol producers based in Washington, says there's no evidence that ethanol can damage smaller engines, either.
"Tests completed on lawnmowers, chainsaws, weed trimmers and blower vacs with ethanol fuels showed no engine failures, no unscheduled maintenance and good performance," the association said.
But mechanics across the country insist that as gasoline blended with ethanol takes over in more gas stations, lawnmowers and boat motors everywhere are choking.
"They're starving for gas, because the little needle holes in them are stopped up with the gel that happens when that stuff breaks down," Mallisham said. "It stops them up so it can't run."
Here's what happens: In smaller engines, ethanol can create a chain reaction of events that end up clogging valves and rusting out small metal parts — including, crucially, carburetors.
"When you mix ethanol with your fuel, you've now put a chemical substance in there that's going to attract moisture, which is going to promote a quicker deterioration of the fuel that you have," said Bob Magnotti, owner of Magnotti's Small Engine Service in Roanoke, Va. In effect, said Doug Ryms, a mechanic at Como Mower Service in Columbus, Ohio, "the alcohol actually dissipates the oil. So on a two-cycle engine, you're lubricating the engine, but the oil is being pushed away, so it's actually not lubricating the engine."
That creates a gummy residue, called shellack, that clogs filters and hoses. And it does no good to follow the rocking-chair wisdom that says you'll be fine if you drain the tank before you gas it back up. "People will tell you you can take the gas out of them and it won't happen, but it's the residue that does the damage," Mallisham said.
Ethanol already under pressure:
Most gasoline sold in the United States is now mixed with up to 10 percent ethanol, according to industry estimates. Use of the blended fuel, often called E10, has grown with a federal mandate designed to boost the levels of renewable fuels at the pump. In many areas, it's the only gasoline widely sold.
The fuel blend has been the focus of debate in recent months as analysts and some farmers say the diversion of corn to ethanol production has led to higher prices for corn in its use as a food crop. The Environmental Protection Agency is considering a request for a temporary 50 percent cut in new mandates for ethanol production because of concern that they are helping drive up food costs.
In a study released this week, researchers at Purdue University in Indiana found that corn prices had risen to $4 a bushel, the highest in a decade, largely because of the higher prices farmers can demand from fuel producers.
"Three dollars was just because the price of oil went up and the market demanded more ethanol to substitute for gasoline," said Wallace E. Tyner, co-director of Purdue's Center for Global Trade Analysis.
David Summers, a biofuels researcher at Missouri University of Science and Technology in Rolla, said that while ethanol was cheaper to produce than pure gasoline because it is subsidized, vehicles may also get fewer miles to the gallon.
"It was the wonder fuel to get us out of trouble — and it won't," he said. When you add in its tendency to damage some engines, many mechanics and green fuel advocates are asking whether ethanol is worth it.
"There is no massive PR machine working to point out the downsides of ethanol, like there is on the other side," said Christa Westerberg, a lawyer in Stoughton, Wis., who has represented opponents of ethanol plants in Wisconsin.
Rick Kitchings, the mechanic in Georgia, said consumers simply should insist on pure gasoline for their small utility engines.
"Theoretically, avoid ethanol," he said. "Avoid ethanol."
xsivhp
Active member
Sounds Made Up.
chance3131
New member
The anti-ethanol propaganda machine keeps rolling. I wish someone would just once say something good about ethanol and what it has done to keep prices down in certain markets. Ethanol has been in most of michigan gas for 10 years and a really long time in MN gas without complaints. Sounds like someone with alot of money is trying to slow the use of ethanol (big oil).
xsivhp
Active member
I was just kidding I think there is a lot of truth to that article. Any industry that needs to be subsidized probably really isn't needed. Just my opinion.
"I wish someone would just once say something good about ethanol and what it has done to keep prices down in certain markets."
Interesting......and what markets would that be? The cost of corn? The cost of the diesel used to harvest it? Our taxes used to subsidize this stuff? I guess I'm missing something here.......
Interesting......and what markets would that be? The cost of corn? The cost of the diesel used to harvest it? Our taxes used to subsidize this stuff? I guess I'm missing something here.......
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This ought to wake Gary up, whereever he is . . .
Prepare for the "RUN ATF THROUGH IT UNTIL IT QUITS" concept! 
Maybe some of the bad ethanol believers should do a little research on ethanol, instead of believing everything you read. I for one have never heard a farmer blame ethanol for hi food prices. Most transportation co right now are charging a 55% fuel surcharge or greater to deliver products, food included, grain to market included, etc. They are doing this because diesel is so hi priced, higher than gas, which is diesel fuel that is refined twice more to make gasoline. Maybe if the goverment took a stand against big oil, the real culprit would be found. there was a show on CNN about a mounth ago, that had solid figures on big oil. Oil is costing the US 70 bucks a barrel for the oil itself 20 bucks was transportation across the ocean , and the rest of the 140 a barrel was profit for big oil. So the oil that is coming out of the ground here in the states, has an even higher profit margin. I garuntee you a bushel of corn has no were near that margin of profit. Lets start pointing the finger were it needs be pointed. China is drilling for oil 50 miles off of the coast of Florida, and selling it to us. We won't drill there because of the ecosystem is in dager, but we buy it for 140 bucks a barrel. Canada is angle drilling into ND everyday, it is legal, more power to them, but we aren't drilling there at all yet, nor would we ever drill back across country borders. Once again we buy this oil for the same 140 bucks a barrel that we pay to get it shipped over seas for. I would bet my *** if ethanol production stopped tomorow, you would never know it at the grocery store, and at the pump you would see it, cause big oil would have no compition. Now wheres gary to help me out on this Maxdlx
xsivhp
Active member
Farmers are the only people benefitting from ethanol production- why would they say anything against it?
woofer700
New member
this never stops. Its no different than congress fixing social security, somebody says this or somebody says that, next thing ya know, someone is having a heart attack, thinking something else is bad for you or bad for your lawn mower, Ethanol is not responsible for your plugged fuel filters, or your rusted from the inside engines, in my opinion, you get the benefit of use, by what you take care of. I run it in everything because its cheaper, never have i ever had a problem with fuel, only what i didnt do.
Exciterfan
Member
Ethanol issues in Marine engines
My outboard mechanic has seen tons of issues this season with melted carb floats and he belives it's the ethanol.
One other warning he gave me is that in pre-mix situations if you leave your tank still for longer perios of time the ethanol sperates from the fuel and the oil doesn't mix with the ethanol. The ethanol sinks to the bottom of the tank, you start the engine and presto, a scuffed piston.
Shake the tank!!!
My outboard mechanic has seen tons of issues this season with melted carb floats and he belives it's the ethanol.
One other warning he gave me is that in pre-mix situations if you leave your tank still for longer perios of time the ethanol sperates from the fuel and the oil doesn't mix with the ethanol. The ethanol sinks to the bottom of the tank, you start the engine and presto, a scuffed piston.
Shake the tank!!!
Mighty
Member
We are the only industrialized nation on earth using a freakin cash crop to make ethanol 
All the others use waste and by products of their cash crops. I don't recall which one's are which but have read about some using grass, others using the waste form sugar cane stalks after making cane sugar and some others actually turning their waste landfills into ethanol production. God knows we have plenty of that. But no, the good Ol' US of A uses corn
All the others use waste and by products of their cash crops. I don't recall which one's are which but have read about some using grass, others using the waste form sugar cane stalks after making cane sugar and some others actually turning their waste landfills into ethanol production. God knows we have plenty of that. But no, the good Ol' US of A uses corn
Apsley Max
New member
This is getting a little out of hand .Sure ethanol is not as good as gas.Adjust for it.Take precautionary measures.But don,t start yaking about Canada angle drilling into ND!!! Maybe it will be all better when George Bush starts angle drilling into Canada's Yukon from your Arctic National Wildlife refuge,which is in the works.Its China that has you by the throat.Why cant they make it from rice??
racerrob6m
New member
For the ethanol fans
Check out this link re: ethanol & what it does, especially
with the moisture thing & 2 stroke motors!! Oh yeah & shelf life is good too!!
http://www.osmb.state.or.us/OSMB/news/E10.shtml
Interesting huh!!
And to those who claim its great..BULL SH!T!!
Since this crap was mandated in OR by our frickin liberal a$$ eco crazy governor, I can tell you that I lost 1.5 to 2 mpg running this stuff in my sales truck. And, everyone I talk to has experienced the same or even worse mpg drop in their vehicles. So for a guy like me who drives 40-45,000 miles per year, I sure am happy as I am self employed & pay the fuel bill. For the math challenged here, it works out to roughly an additional 250 gal of fuel per year.
And at $4.00 per gal, thats an extra $1,000 for lower performance. Cool huh!!
Also, I lost a 2 stroke Phazer2 motor to this "fine fuel" back in Jan...rust on a rod bearing due to the "solvent wash" & "moisture holding" properties of ethanol.
Ya gotta love it.!!
Check out this link re: ethanol & what it does, especially
with the moisture thing & 2 stroke motors!! Oh yeah & shelf life is good too!!
http://www.osmb.state.or.us/OSMB/news/E10.shtml
Interesting huh!!
And to those who claim its great..BULL SH!T!!
Since this crap was mandated in OR by our frickin liberal a$$ eco crazy governor, I can tell you that I lost 1.5 to 2 mpg running this stuff in my sales truck. And, everyone I talk to has experienced the same or even worse mpg drop in their vehicles. So for a guy like me who drives 40-45,000 miles per year, I sure am happy as I am self employed & pay the fuel bill. For the math challenged here, it works out to roughly an additional 250 gal of fuel per year.
And at $4.00 per gal, thats an extra $1,000 for lower performance. Cool huh!!
Also, I lost a 2 stroke Phazer2 motor to this "fine fuel" back in Jan...rust on a rod bearing due to the "solvent wash" & "moisture holding" properties of ethanol.
Ya gotta love it.!!
chance3131
New member
Do the math for me and tell me what the extra $.30 gallon that ethanol blended gas saves you at the pump. I really don't have the energy to figure it out right now.
terret725
New member
im a small engine mechanic and ive seen what they are talking about. brand new trimmers and blowers that look like straight gas was ran threw them but mix in the tank. carbs gummed up after only siting for 2 months without a stabilizer in it. gaskets and fuel lines that just fall apart. abnormal about of water in the gas. Ive also notice a lost in fuel economy since the ethanol blend was introduced. i use to be able to leave my sled and start it like 4 times during the summer and never have to clean the carbs. now i spend the first part of the winter cleaning mine and all my buddies carbs on the sleds.
ethanol has its pros and cons. just have to make the decision what u want out of ur gas. performance or economy.
ethanol has its pros and cons. just have to make the decision what u want out of ur gas. performance or economy.
If your state is charging more for ethanol gas they are screwing you. In Iowa ethanol is always 10 to 20 cents cheaper. Once again blame ethanol when it is goverment and big oil giving you the a$$ ****ing. ps e-85 runs 2 mpg less than non ethanol fuel in my brother in laws truck. The e 85 is 1 dollar cheaper than 15% ethanol and 1.13 cheaper than 100% gas. I blend it to 50/50 in my cars and they run fine, and I am money ahead of you guys. Maxdlx
racerrob6m
New member
If ya have a choice !!!
A) If we had a choice for the damn ethanol, that would be nice, but here in OR, it has been mandated that ALL gas is 10% ethanol...NO FRICKIN
choice here man!!
B) Yep, most states charge less for ethanol, I just saw that on a 4800 mile road trip from OR to WI to SD to OR.
But...NOT in OR, again, our eco-enviro liberal govenor has mandated the ethanol at the same price as the real gas... So..where are our "savings"??
Hmmm, lower grade gas, lower performance, higher price, yada..yada..
C) Interesting that there is still the mindset that the government is to be blamed for the higher $$. The higher fuel price has nothing to do with increased demand by say China, Asia, India etc, & lack of drilling here in the US... hmmm.?
D) Big oil gouging..no question they can manipulate the prices but........the margins are still only in the 10% range. Hedge funds are 82-87% range.
Where is the real gouging??
Make no mistake, I hate the new pricing but for some folks to continue to think that the govt. is going to get the prices down..say if candidate A or B gets elected is quite funny & also unlikely to happen.
But, Yep, gotta love the ethanol crap!!!
Wish I had a choice here!!!
A) If we had a choice for the damn ethanol, that would be nice, but here in OR, it has been mandated that ALL gas is 10% ethanol...NO FRICKIN
choice here man!!
B) Yep, most states charge less for ethanol, I just saw that on a 4800 mile road trip from OR to WI to SD to OR.
But...NOT in OR, again, our eco-enviro liberal govenor has mandated the ethanol at the same price as the real gas... So..where are our "savings"??
Hmmm, lower grade gas, lower performance, higher price, yada..yada..
C) Interesting that there is still the mindset that the government is to be blamed for the higher $$. The higher fuel price has nothing to do with increased demand by say China, Asia, India etc, & lack of drilling here in the US... hmmm.?
D) Big oil gouging..no question they can manipulate the prices but........the margins are still only in the 10% range. Hedge funds are 82-87% range.
Where is the real gouging??
Make no mistake, I hate the new pricing but for some folks to continue to think that the govt. is going to get the prices down..say if candidate A or B gets elected is quite funny & also unlikely to happen.
But, Yep, gotta love the ethanol crap!!!
Wish I had a choice here!!!