Jr.SRXpilot
New member
My piston just got a hole blown into the top, 5 minutes after filling at the gas station - thinking it's the Ethanol - water problem. Local Yamaha dealer said I was the 5th blown motor in 3 weeks after ALL of us filled up at this station.
Has anyone had any success with a court action, governement investigation??
Has anyone had any success with a court action, governement investigation??
2strokinit
New member
Have a look
Stroll on over to a thread I started..well one many threads about ethanol anyhow.
Stroll on over to a thread I started..well one many threads about ethanol anyhow.
horkn
New member
Good luck with that suit. You are going to need it.
Yamaouch08
VIP Member
It really sucks getting bad gas,been there done that myself,good luck with the suit!
Suing over bad gas...
I see you are from Canada -- good luck with your lawsuit there. I'm not too sure what your standards are up there for causes of action... So sorry but my advice only extends to guys south of the border, in particular MN.
But the reality is you can only sue for intentional actions by a tortfeasor (here, the gas station) for actions where there was foreseeability. There may also be a cause of action if product creators/suppliers were put on notice of some known defect in a product, such as if all sled owners with blown engines before you had gone to them and told them they had a defective product (highly unlikely, and how do you prove that happened). If they didn't know or have reason to know, or if they had no notice, probably no suit.
Another point: You have to prove a causal connection between that bad gas and the blown engine (this can be quite difficult). If any link in the causal connection chain breaks, you may be sol... Such as, what if some where in the meanwhile they had received a new shipment of gas and sleds still kept grenading -- you would have a hard time overcoming that.
Another thought I have is that your best cause of action is most likely against the gas refinery, or even better the ethanol distillery (who created the product), not the gas station (who is only peddling the would be defective product, probably not knowing a whole lot about the product).
I'm not trying to bring you down or anything, and I really fell for your loss (blown engine), but some things to think about before running off to small claims court and suing...
I see you are from Canada -- good luck with your lawsuit there. I'm not too sure what your standards are up there for causes of action... So sorry but my advice only extends to guys south of the border, in particular MN.
But the reality is you can only sue for intentional actions by a tortfeasor (here, the gas station) for actions where there was foreseeability. There may also be a cause of action if product creators/suppliers were put on notice of some known defect in a product, such as if all sled owners with blown engines before you had gone to them and told them they had a defective product (highly unlikely, and how do you prove that happened). If they didn't know or have reason to know, or if they had no notice, probably no suit.
Another point: You have to prove a causal connection between that bad gas and the blown engine (this can be quite difficult). If any link in the causal connection chain breaks, you may be sol... Such as, what if some where in the meanwhile they had received a new shipment of gas and sleds still kept grenading -- you would have a hard time overcoming that.
Another thought I have is that your best cause of action is most likely against the gas refinery, or even better the ethanol distillery (who created the product), not the gas station (who is only peddling the would be defective product, probably not knowing a whole lot about the product).
I'm not trying to bring you down or anything, and I really fell for your loss (blown engine), but some things to think about before running off to small claims court and suing...
I feel for your troubles but you cant go suing a station for supplying gas that has ethanol. It states on the pump that the gas your pumping contains ethanol. They sell stabilizers/ additives for ethanol fuel.
PhatboyC
New member
Jr.SRXpilot said:
Your from Ontario. We had Ethanol in our gas for years now.
Finally someone said something smart! Wake up people... Petro Canada's "Winter Gas" mean it has ethanol in it. Most (if not all) gas stations do the same think adding up to 10% ethanol in their gas starting around the November time frame. Been like this for years and years.PhatboyC said:
For all you US guys blowing things up, go back to stock! Works fine in Canada and our sleds don't blow up.
racerrob6m
New member
Buy Fuel In Canada !!
Glad to hear that in Canada, sleds dont blow up!!
Well, maybe if your fuel supply is really good & consistent!!
But, I can tell you 1st hand that the quality of our fuel supply has deteriorated really bad in the last 5 years.
Not only for 2 strokes but across the board !!
If you talk to any good small-engine, marine engine, snowmobile & car mechanics here in OR, you will hear the truth about the "high quality"
of the current ethanol fuel supply. While I agree that if you are "tuning the 2 strokes to the ragged edge" you better not be surprised at a "blow up-meltdown"
But if your stock & all you did was a new tank of fuel...and it lets go..
well, I guess the fuel is the issue.!!
Been there done that...
The fuel quality issues are REAL !!!
While it may be a regional thing..they are real.
Guess I better go north to Canada where the fuel is pure & good & bring some home!! LOL
Glad to hear that in Canada, sleds dont blow up!!
Well, maybe if your fuel supply is really good & consistent!!
But, I can tell you 1st hand that the quality of our fuel supply has deteriorated really bad in the last 5 years.
Not only for 2 strokes but across the board !!
If you talk to any good small-engine, marine engine, snowmobile & car mechanics here in OR, you will hear the truth about the "high quality"
of the current ethanol fuel supply. While I agree that if you are "tuning the 2 strokes to the ragged edge" you better not be surprised at a "blow up-meltdown"
But if your stock & all you did was a new tank of fuel...and it lets go..
well, I guess the fuel is the issue.!!
Been there done that...
The fuel quality issues are REAL !!!
While it may be a regional thing..they are real.
Guess I better go north to Canada where the fuel is pure & good & bring some home!! LOL
I'll save you the trip and put some in the mail 4 ya. Eh!racerrob6m said:Glad to hear that in Canada, sleds dont blow up!!
Well, maybe if your fuel supply is really good & consistent!!
But, I can tell you 1st hand that the quality of our fuel supply has deteriorated really bad in the last 5 years.
Not only for 2 strokes but across the board !!
If you talk to any good small-engine, marine engine, snowmobile & car mechanics here in OR, you will hear the truth about the "high quality"
of the current ethanol fuel supply. While I agree that if you are "tuning the 2 strokes to the ragged edge" you better not be surprised at a "blow up-meltdown"
But if your stock & all you did was a new tank of fuel...and it lets go..
well, I guess the fuel is the issue.!!
Been there done that...
The fuel quality issues are REAL !!!
While it may be a regional thing..they are real.
Guess I better go north to Canada where the fuel is pure & good & bring some home!! LOL
I think you know my comments were made with common sense in mind (granted I could have worded it better). If you buy cheap *** gas from a small no-name local station then you risk running into problems. If you screw with your jetting or compression you are also begging for problems. If leave your sled outside for 3 weeks with a half empty tank you are asking for problems.
My point was that this type of gas has been around for years and has been run in thousands of stock sleds without issue. You can't disagree with that statement, which means the root cause is elsewhere.
It does not take long at all... to know wether you get bad gas...
racerrob6m
New member
Whammy: Yep...9 miles !!!
Last year on my wifes stock Phazer2...extremely well maintaned sled.
2900 miles...POOF!! Jetting is FAT, etc.etc.
YamerDown: I agree with your thoughts to a certain degree & not to argue,
but...in the cases I know of in my area, myself included, we did not buy
the "Cheap A$$" gas....I never do!!
So, it is an issue we have little control over. I am now using additives to help combat the "good gas" we get.
And thanks for the "mail offer", I will be installing a 100 Gal "mail tank",
please send the "good stuff" not the SH** we already have!!! LOL
Rob
Last year on my wifes stock Phazer2...extremely well maintaned sled.
2900 miles...POOF!! Jetting is FAT, etc.etc.
YamerDown: I agree with your thoughts to a certain degree & not to argue,
but...in the cases I know of in my area, myself included, we did not buy
the "Cheap A$$" gas....I never do!!
So, it is an issue we have little control over. I am now using additives to help combat the "good gas" we get.
And thanks for the "mail offer", I will be installing a 100 Gal "mail tank",
please send the "good stuff" not the SH** we already have!!! LOL
Rob
tedgoesfast
New member
are you guys sure its not water .any sled that is jetted right usually has no problems.ive seen water do this alot but i could be a dumdum
Yes in most cases it is the water content in the gas...that should not be there.. causing lean condition...
You need good turnaround,, & if you see the tanker there,, fill up later.. they bring the water to the top where the pickup is...
horkn
New member
YamerDown said:
Yamerdown, I have been trying to get through to some folks for a while. we have had e10 for 15+ years. It works just fine, but if the sled is not stock, you better know what you are doing.
racerrob6m
New member
Education on ethanol is needed !!
Horkn:
I know you are a fan of ethanol & you have had a good supply based on your experiences. And that is good news for you folks there.
But for you to go ahead and ASSUME that ALL ethanol is created equal & try to dispel the facts just seems funny.
There are issues with ethanol, NO QUESTION
Now for those with open minds & people who have had issues & want to educate themselves, check these links:
http://www.theoutboardwizard.com/boat_ethanol_danger_precaution.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25936782/
http://www.amlibpub.com/liberty_blog/2006/09/ethanol-damage.html
http://www.osmb.state.or.us/OSMB/news/E10.shtml
http://www.factsaboutethanol.org/?p=299
http://www.fueltestkit.com/ethanol_problems_damage.html
I like a couple of these lines taken from a couple of articles, especially the 2nd paragraph under A relating to how the alchohol in ethanol dissapates oil, hmmmm..... is this good for a 2 stroke??:
A) “When you mix ethanol with your fuel, you’ve now put a chemical substance in there that’s going to attract moisture, which is going to promote a quicker deterioration of the fuel that you have,” said Bob Magnotti, owner of Magnotti’s Small Engine Service in Roanoke, Va.
In effect, said Doug Ryms, a mechanic at Como Mower Service in Columbus, Ohio, “the alcohol actually dissipates the oil. So on a two-cycle engine, you’re lubricating the engine, but the oil is being pushed away, so it’s actually not lubricating the engine.”
B)Noyes said engines most severely affected by E10 appear to be two-stroke, fuel-injected outboards, followed by two-stroke, carbureted outboards. Inboard-outboard engines rank third on his hit list, followed by four-stroke outboards and finally by inboards.
So, while I understand that many of these articles relate to marine motors, I do believe there is a real relevance with the 2 stroke snowmobile community.
And for those who have not had "any issues ever" with ethanol, I hope it stays that way for you folks. For the rest of us, education & awareness is your best weapon & dont ASSUME A DAMN thing with todays "green fuel" supply and that it is SAFE!!
Now in closing, I am guessing the folks who have had no issues with ethanol might be in the E85 category which sounds like it might be better. In my area, it was mandated to run the E10 & ONLY E10 in the whole state which has proven to be bad. So, again, what is the ethanol in your region?
Good luck & hope ya dont blow anything up !!
Rob
Horkn:
I know you are a fan of ethanol & you have had a good supply based on your experiences. And that is good news for you folks there.
But for you to go ahead and ASSUME that ALL ethanol is created equal & try to dispel the facts just seems funny.
There are issues with ethanol, NO QUESTION
Now for those with open minds & people who have had issues & want to educate themselves, check these links:
http://www.theoutboardwizard.com/boat_ethanol_danger_precaution.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25936782/
http://www.amlibpub.com/liberty_blog/2006/09/ethanol-damage.html
http://www.osmb.state.or.us/OSMB/news/E10.shtml
http://www.factsaboutethanol.org/?p=299
http://www.fueltestkit.com/ethanol_problems_damage.html
I like a couple of these lines taken from a couple of articles, especially the 2nd paragraph under A relating to how the alchohol in ethanol dissapates oil, hmmmm..... is this good for a 2 stroke??:
A) “When you mix ethanol with your fuel, you’ve now put a chemical substance in there that’s going to attract moisture, which is going to promote a quicker deterioration of the fuel that you have,” said Bob Magnotti, owner of Magnotti’s Small Engine Service in Roanoke, Va.
In effect, said Doug Ryms, a mechanic at Como Mower Service in Columbus, Ohio, “the alcohol actually dissipates the oil. So on a two-cycle engine, you’re lubricating the engine, but the oil is being pushed away, so it’s actually not lubricating the engine.”
B)Noyes said engines most severely affected by E10 appear to be two-stroke, fuel-injected outboards, followed by two-stroke, carbureted outboards. Inboard-outboard engines rank third on his hit list, followed by four-stroke outboards and finally by inboards.
So, while I understand that many of these articles relate to marine motors, I do believe there is a real relevance with the 2 stroke snowmobile community.
And for those who have not had "any issues ever" with ethanol, I hope it stays that way for you folks. For the rest of us, education & awareness is your best weapon & dont ASSUME A DAMN thing with todays "green fuel" supply and that it is SAFE!!
Now in closing, I am guessing the folks who have had no issues with ethanol might be in the E85 category which sounds like it might be better. In my area, it was mandated to run the E10 & ONLY E10 in the whole state which has proven to be bad. So, again, what is the ethanol in your region?
Good luck & hope ya dont blow anything up !!
Rob
bluemonster1
LIFE MEMBER ONLY ONCE!!!
what a farce...eh!!!Is it over for the 2 stroke sleds or what....it's demise in the fuel that you need to run them.I guess if enough guys blow enough engine..they will scrap them and move on.
Please don't take the following questions as me being a smart a$$ or bashing. I don't honestly know the answers and they seems like obvious ones that need to be asked (not expecting you to have all the answers).
Assuming I have regular gas without anything added to it and I suspect I have a small amount of water in my tank from a bad station or condensation. Should I add some ethanol based de-icer to it?
Someone once told me that adding alcohol to watery gas helped to absorb some of the water and make it semi-combustible. Hog wash or fact?racerrob6m said:
Assuming I have regular gas without anything added to it and I suspect I have a small amount of water in my tank from a bad station or condensation. Should I add some ethanol based de-icer to it?
So I have oil and gas mixed together and it splashes around my engine and lubricates everything, no problem. Now I add a little alcohol to the mix which dissipates the oil, but the engine is sealed (as it was before) and there is no where for the oil to go really. Does it not still randomly splash around my engine and lubricating everything.racerrob6m said:
I would absolutely agree with that ranking. Two strokes are fare less tolerant to lean/fat conditions and fuel injected implies it is being run fairly close to the edge. Carbed version are usually run a little fatter, so more tolerant. Then you got the 4 strokes.racerrob6m said:
Don't have time to look up the diff between E10 and E85, but my understanding was that the automakers would not allow more then 10% ethanol being added to fuel as the vehicles were not tuned for it. As such, Canadian gas is allowed to have up to 10% by volume. When the fuels came out with higher concentrations they changed the name to identify it as such.racerrob6m said:
But what about my Inflatable Susie? Get lonely up north.racerrob6m said:
racerrob6m
New member
Hey YamerDown:
I think there should be more discussion with "open minds" & help to educate all of us. I sure dont mean to use the ethanol as the "complete reason" for ALL motor failures, but, I do believe it is the root cause of more failures than it might get credit for due to owners NOT knowing what is going on!!
I sure as hell dont have the answers...LOL !!
I am just reading what is out there. I had a rod bearing failure last year that I just could not F**ing believe with the way my sleds are taken care of & ridden. It was my wifes sled & she can ride good, but we were not ridng hard at all. Fortunately, she heard it "sounding funny" at about 30MPH ( That is 48 KPH for you Canadians...Eyh...LOL
) And she just let up, stopped & then noticed it idleing rough & shut it down. This did save the case etc.
In the post mortem of the motor, we discovered that the rod bearing was "clean" ie...no oil...hmmmm. Anyhow, we got to talking about the "new green fuel" & some issues out there and here we are!!
SO, how many PSI does it take to make "Suzie" fun??
Do ya use a "hand pump" or a small compressor??? LOL
Hey, I am glad that even though "it is lonely up there" it is at least a "Suzie" doll & not "some poor warm sheep" LOL !!
Rob
I think there should be more discussion with "open minds" & help to educate all of us. I sure dont mean to use the ethanol as the "complete reason" for ALL motor failures, but, I do believe it is the root cause of more failures than it might get credit for due to owners NOT knowing what is going on!!
I sure as hell dont have the answers...LOL !!
I am just reading what is out there. I had a rod bearing failure last year that I just could not F**ing believe with the way my sleds are taken care of & ridden. It was my wifes sled & she can ride good, but we were not ridng hard at all. Fortunately, she heard it "sounding funny" at about 30MPH ( That is 48 KPH for you Canadians...Eyh...LOL
) And she just let up, stopped & then noticed it idleing rough & shut it down. This did save the case etc. In the post mortem of the motor, we discovered that the rod bearing was "clean" ie...no oil...hmmmm. Anyhow, we got to talking about the "new green fuel" & some issues out there and here we are!!
SO, how many PSI does it take to make "Suzie" fun??
Do ya use a "hand pump" or a small compressor??? LOL
Hey, I am glad that even though "it is lonely up there" it is at least a "Suzie" doll & not "some poor warm sheep" LOL !!
Rob