Backwoods M Max
New member
so I finally gave in and called heel clicker, I wasn't getting what I wanted and am sick of drilling and grinding rivets. The guy in tech is super helpful and he quickly came out to say that a 51/43 helix just won't work with the torque curve of a 2 stroke. No matter what I did to the primary it just wouldn't make the rpm's come up to where they need to be. I guess that the 45 degree from the flat land sx sleds is a nice upgrade in the mountain sled since it upshifts a little faster but still has descent backshift.
so I've got a set of weights on the way and a 45 helix on the way. he's sending me a 43 since mine is up at camp and I won't be able to get up there to get it any time soon (son is about to be born) but I figure I'll try the 43 at 60 degrees for the time being until the 45 shows up.
For the heel clicker setup: he's sending me a weight set up for 0-3000' that is the same setup as the sxr. I have to set up the other 2. I looked over the user clutching chart and everyone seems to have kept the clutching pretty much by the instructions with heel clickers. Is the weight they come set up with pretty much spot on and good to go? Also, it says to use 1.2g in the shoulder, does that mean that you put the set screws into the shoulder by themselves? Do you bottom it out in the hole or set it flush with the face? I'm guessing loctite on everything is a must?
so I've got a set of weights on the way and a 45 helix on the way. he's sending me a 43 since mine is up at camp and I won't be able to get up there to get it any time soon (son is about to be born) but I figure I'll try the 43 at 60 degrees for the time being until the 45 shows up.
For the heel clicker setup: he's sending me a weight set up for 0-3000' that is the same setup as the sxr. I have to set up the other 2. I looked over the user clutching chart and everyone seems to have kept the clutching pretty much by the instructions with heel clickers. Is the weight they come set up with pretty much spot on and good to go? Also, it says to use 1.2g in the shoulder, does that mean that you put the set screws into the shoulder by themselves? Do you bottom it out in the hole or set it flush with the face? I'm guessing loctite on everything is a must?
Heelclickers are easier to tune than most think. How much weight you want in the heel (I think this is what you mean by shoulder) depends on what you want. The more the mass, the lower the engagement. If you want high engagement, have less, and the other way around. I wanted engagement @ about 4200 so I used 5,4 grams in the heel. For best results, you need a digital gram scale to gett all the weights in at 0,1 gram within each other. Those washers have to be set on the right weight to get the exact weight on the weights. I use 15,6 rollers and I ground (faced?) the washers that face the roller, so I know for sure they will not hit it upon backshift. I also went with a Hauck red secondary spring for extra strength, so it won't just suck down the belt when using the sled in the powder with heelclicker (but also a much steeper helix). Really, what it all depends on is your gearing and track and riding style. Can you tell us more about what you are looking for in that set up?
Has the sled the stock pipe?
Gearing?
What kind of track?
Jetting?
Size of rollers
What kind of spring do you have in the secondary?
Desired engagement rpm?
The biggest issue I had with the heelclickers was that it always after some riding, had twisted the engine. I ended up with a set of XENTRIX washers from northern lites. Now I outrun or keep up with most modern 600s. The etecs don't stand a chance.
I have the stock track, transfer enhancement kit and leaner jetting as well as thinner headgasket and reedstopper mod.
Has the sled the stock pipe?
Gearing?
What kind of track?
Jetting?
Size of rollers
What kind of spring do you have in the secondary?
Desired engagement rpm?
The biggest issue I had with the heelclickers was that it always after some riding, had twisted the engine. I ended up with a set of XENTRIX washers from northern lites. Now I outrun or keep up with most modern 600s. The etecs don't stand a chance.
I have the stock track, transfer enhancement kit and leaner jetting as well as thinner headgasket and reedstopper mod.
Backwoods M Max
New member
Norwegian, it's a 2002 mtn max set up as follows:
Stock pipe, mbrp race can
145/143.8/143.8 mains 3 clip needles 45 pilots vForce reeds
14.5mm rollers in primary
Engagement around 4600, I'd like to keep that.
Green spring in the secondary, helix will change. Back to a 43 to test rpm then test 45 when it gets here
Carslile 805xs belt (grippy)
20/39 gearing (has reverse)
Slp ridgid adjustable torque mount (no engine twist under acceleration)
151x2" camoplast challenger.
Ez-ryde skid (stays flat/minimal transfer, hooks up all the time)
If I end up grabbing the belt too fast, I do have a silver secondary spring I can use with minimal wrap, but it does have tons of preload.
Stock pipe, mbrp race can
145/143.8/143.8 mains 3 clip needles 45 pilots vForce reeds
14.5mm rollers in primary
Engagement around 4600, I'd like to keep that.
Green spring in the secondary, helix will change. Back to a 43 to test rpm then test 45 when it gets here
Carslile 805xs belt (grippy)
20/39 gearing (has reverse)
Slp ridgid adjustable torque mount (no engine twist under acceleration)
151x2" camoplast challenger.
Ez-ryde skid (stays flat/minimal transfer, hooks up all the time)
If I end up grabbing the belt too fast, I do have a silver secondary spring I can use with minimal wrap, but it does have tons of preload.
Well your jetting seems reasonable to me. As for the belt, I am not familiar with that xs belt, I only run OEM belts. Do you have a picture of that torque mount? I'd like to see it, do you know whether they sell it still?
To get around 4600 rpm engagement I think you need close to 4 or 4,5 grams in the heel. Try that. The trickiest thing will to be to find the "right" helix for that combination. If you use a 43 deg helix with a silver secondary spring, I see lots of backshift but not a whole lot of upshift. I ended up with a red hauck secondary spring and a 50/38 helix(!) and that's with a roller (Using between 50 and 70 deg twist). Many will say it's bad but please give me a better suggestion, I will try it out.
By grabbing the belt too fast, I interpret it like the engagement gets jerky? On a pretty much stock mountainmax, it will be smooth, the only thing I can think of that could mess that is the belt. I guess the reason why you got that belt is because you couldn't get the stock weights to grab the belt enough, especially at low rpms? That is solved when using heelclickers.
In my opinion, you shouldn't go lower than say 50-60 degrees on that spring even though it's a silver. Going to low will probably end up the belt being sucked down in the secondary anyway. The challenger track should be almost like clutching for the stock track, longer yes, but probably a ton lighter.
I read in the instructions for heelclickers that there could be some contact issues using 14,5 mm rollers on at least the old viper clutches. I have 15,6 mm rollers and I'm happy with that.
Now, if you use the 43 deg helix, with a silver @60 deg, I suggest the following:
4,5 grams in heel
5 grams in tip.
See where that leads you. If you don't like it, it's pretty easy to change. One thing tough, that spring can be a nightmare to get the cap down on. I suggest getting a dalton clutch dummy tool to press the cap down while screwing on the bolts, or you can build your own tool. Threaded rod with a few big washers, you get the idea.
To get around 4600 rpm engagement I think you need close to 4 or 4,5 grams in the heel. Try that. The trickiest thing will to be to find the "right" helix for that combination. If you use a 43 deg helix with a silver secondary spring, I see lots of backshift but not a whole lot of upshift. I ended up with a red hauck secondary spring and a 50/38 helix(!) and that's with a roller (Using between 50 and 70 deg twist). Many will say it's bad but please give me a better suggestion, I will try it out.
By grabbing the belt too fast, I interpret it like the engagement gets jerky? On a pretty much stock mountainmax, it will be smooth, the only thing I can think of that could mess that is the belt. I guess the reason why you got that belt is because you couldn't get the stock weights to grab the belt enough, especially at low rpms? That is solved when using heelclickers.
In my opinion, you shouldn't go lower than say 50-60 degrees on that spring even though it's a silver. Going to low will probably end up the belt being sucked down in the secondary anyway. The challenger track should be almost like clutching for the stock track, longer yes, but probably a ton lighter.
I read in the instructions for heelclickers that there could be some contact issues using 14,5 mm rollers on at least the old viper clutches. I have 15,6 mm rollers and I'm happy with that.
Now, if you use the 43 deg helix, with a silver @60 deg, I suggest the following:
4,5 grams in heel
5 grams in tip.
See where that leads you. If you don't like it, it's pretty easy to change. One thing tough, that spring can be a nightmare to get the cap down on. I suggest getting a dalton clutch dummy tool to press the cap down while screwing on the bolts, or you can build your own tool. Threaded rod with a few big washers, you get the idea.
Backwoods M Max
New member
I doubt I will actually end up running the silver spring. last winter tom hartman told me to run a w-w-w primary and a silver secondary and it would work awesome. well it sucked. I was over revving to over 9000 rpm at partial throttle and didn't get much upshift.
I asked him about the space issue with the weights, he said that's a non issue anymore I guess the weights have been modified to get the clearance issues.
I'll just have to go out and ride it and see how it goes. Putting the 43 helix back in at 70 degrees I know it will shift "stock" and can work on engagement rpm and wide open throttle rpm.
The carslile ultimate xs series belts are a special compound that grips incredibly. I went out and flogged the sled hard and went back to the truck to adjust the secondary to try again and it was cool enough that I could touch it by hand without any sense of "ouch that's hot"
I asked him about the space issue with the weights, he said that's a non issue anymore I guess the weights have been modified to get the clearance issues.
I'll just have to go out and ride it and see how it goes. Putting the 43 helix back in at 70 degrees I know it will shift "stock" and can work on engagement rpm and wide open throttle rpm.
The carslile ultimate xs series belts are a special compound that grips incredibly. I went out and flogged the sled hard and went back to the truck to adjust the secondary to try again and it was cool enough that I could touch it by hand without any sense of "ouch that's hot"
When he told you to run that, that was with other weights right? Your plan does sound sound. A 43 will work, but you could get a little more with a multi angle I am sure. When do you get the weights?
Backwoods M Max
New member
The Tom hartman setup was for my stock 8cr weights calibrated for sea level. I didn't know enough about clutching to realize that the secondary was over sprung and it made my season very frustrating. I have read the aaen clutch book a couple times so I at least know what I'm looking at now. The RX-1 helix was my idea. I talked to a few guys with mtn Max in my area and they run multi angle helix, but they must be a cut dual angle with a short initial angle not a progressive like the rx-1. I just looked at the angles not the progressive part when I bought it.
As for what's in it now. I could keep going with my stock weights and lighten them up to make them work with the www spring and it's slightly softer final rate from the wyw. At this point I've got a pile of springs and a helix that I tested and failed so I want something where the spring will have to say the same and I can adjust the weights plus have tech support on the other end of the phone.
I ordered the heel clickers on Friday, he was going to try and get the one set up and in the mail. I'm not sure what method it will ship but I have a few days for it to get from Minnesota to massachusetts. He (I wish I got the guy's name) said they have extensive testing on the sx chassis sleds with the weights and 0-3000' altitude so I'm confident we can make it work. I'm ready for adjustability at this point. I don't like grinding and setting rivets. I know the 43 will give sharp back shift response and now that I've learned to tune a helix I can adjust the preload as conditions change. We know a 43 WILL have good back shift. If it upshifts too slow and there is a huge rpm overshoot I'll have the 45 to play with.
Thanks for the heads up about the insane preload. I will have to get some longer bolts to get the cover started. I don't have my tools with me, it's going to be an in the sled clutch swap.
As for what's in it now. I could keep going with my stock weights and lighten them up to make them work with the www spring and it's slightly softer final rate from the wyw. At this point I've got a pile of springs and a helix that I tested and failed so I want something where the spring will have to say the same and I can adjust the weights plus have tech support on the other end of the phone.
I ordered the heel clickers on Friday, he was going to try and get the one set up and in the mail. I'm not sure what method it will ship but I have a few days for it to get from Minnesota to massachusetts. He (I wish I got the guy's name) said they have extensive testing on the sx chassis sleds with the weights and 0-3000' altitude so I'm confident we can make it work. I'm ready for adjustability at this point. I don't like grinding and setting rivets. I know the 43 will give sharp back shift response and now that I've learned to tune a helix I can adjust the preload as conditions change. We know a 43 WILL have good back shift. If it upshifts too slow and there is a huge rpm overshoot I'll have the 45 to play with.
Thanks for the heads up about the insane preload. I will have to get some longer bolts to get the cover started. I don't have my tools with me, it's going to be an in the sled clutch swap.
not sure about your lower elevation, but i hated the red hc spring for 5000' and above. you may consider the hc black spring if its not too late to adjust your order. as you will learn that red spring is a pita to install so be careful with your clutch cover bushing. you will need tooling for the install.
at higher elevation the red spring has too high of engagement for me and it slams the clutch hard making for jerky starts. something i avoid on mtn sleds. i also notice you like your engagement a bit higher than i prefer for the mtns. i tune my heel clickers for lower like around 3800. makes for a smooth transition while boondocking and the sled becomes easier to handle in the technical riding areas. multi angles will enhance your performance and shallower has been better for me.
depending on your riding style, the average redhead recommendation from super torquer you may not like. they really had no elevation advice for me and i spent many hours tuning. dont get frustrated when you try these but expect to play with them extensively. you have learned some about clutching so your learning curve with the hc's wont be as steep. good luck and dont be afraid to think outside of the box.
at higher elevation the red spring has too high of engagement for me and it slams the clutch hard making for jerky starts. something i avoid on mtn sleds. i also notice you like your engagement a bit higher than i prefer for the mtns. i tune my heel clickers for lower like around 3800. makes for a smooth transition while boondocking and the sled becomes easier to handle in the technical riding areas. multi angles will enhance your performance and shallower has been better for me.
depending on your riding style, the average redhead recommendation from super torquer you may not like. they really had no elevation advice for me and i spent many hours tuning. dont get frustrated when you try these but expect to play with them extensively. you have learned some about clutching so your learning curve with the hc's wont be as steep. good luck and dont be afraid to think outside of the box.
Backwoods M Max
New member
Thanks for that tip. I will see how it comes set up for engagement. I told him I was around 4600 right now but I may set it up with 5 washers, 1 lock washer and the bolt to get me down around 4200. With the slower upshift of a shallow helix I can probably get away with that low engagement not bogging the motor because we'll stay in low gear through takeoff.
I pulled one of my primary cover bolts and went to the hardware store today to get some longer bolts for getting the gorilla spring in. I have 3 40 and 50mm long bolts so I won't have to try and hold it while trying to start bolts. I was also pleased to see that the shoulder mass is changeable in the sled without any clutch disassembly so you can change engagement quick and easy.
A few more questions. In the instructions where it says move the mass to the tip hole if you lose top speed, does that refer to ground speed (mph) or wot rpm? If you need to adjust wot rpm, do you add/remove the mass in the arm like a traditional weight?
Thanks for all your help guys!
I pulled one of my primary cover bolts and went to the hardware store today to get some longer bolts for getting the gorilla spring in. I have 3 40 and 50mm long bolts so I won't have to try and hold it while trying to start bolts. I was also pleased to see that the shoulder mass is changeable in the sled without any clutch disassembly so you can change engagement quick and easy.
A few more questions. In the instructions where it says move the mass to the tip hole if you lose top speed, does that refer to ground speed (mph) or wot rpm? If you need to adjust wot rpm, do you add/remove the mass in the arm like a traditional weight?
Thanks for all your help guys!
Yes, adjust the tip for WOT rpm.
Backwoods M Max
New member
good deal. I'll hope the arm mass is ok for wot rpm and then I'll just play with the engagement. I like the sound of 4200 rpm.
Here's the SLP torque mount. they don't list it anymore but I found it on amazon, there were a few vendors that still have them. I like it a lot.
I see, but the problem I had on my MM was that the motor would move forward for some reason...
mod-it
Member
If you tried the Hartman setup and didn't adjust the tip weight to compensate for your over rev, then it's no wonder you didn't like the way it worked. But I'm surprised that the backshift wasn't great, as an over revving motor with not enough load on it is usually a very snappy backshift.
I 100% agree with snowdad4 on the engagement rpm, you want it in the 3800rpm range or so. A high engagement on a mnt sled means it will blast a hole in powder and trench, resulting in being stuck.
I've always preferred a steeper helix around a 47°, and then lighten lighten up the tip weight to get top rpm's correct.
I 100% agree with snowdad4 on the engagement rpm, you want it in the 3800rpm range or so. A high engagement on a mnt sled means it will blast a hole in powder and trench, resulting in being stuck.
I've always preferred a steeper helix around a 47°, and then lighten lighten up the tip weight to get top rpm's correct.
Last edited:
Backwoods M Max
New member
Tom wanted me to run a silver secondary spring, which I did but it was just way too stiff. I didn't have any upshift, I was only getting about 1/3 up the primary shive. From what I have learned the only time you run one of those is for grass drags because the torque load is so high. Anyways. I have the same setup now in the primary that he recommended and I'm not pulling enough rpm, which makes sense because I have stock calibration yet a softer final rate spring. I've gotten a little sick of rivet tuning, I just wanted a set of weights I can bolt in/out of.
yammitrip1
Member
i really think you are going to need a dual angle helix with a fairly shallow helix in your secondary. My brother is running heel clickers in his cpr piped viper. 5 grams in heel and 3 in middle. with a straight 43 and the rpms are pretty spot on. his sled also make a bit more power to pull that helix as well and is running a 2.0 gear ratio with a 1.5 136 track. I think you are going to need a 50/40 or something with a 8 to 10 spread with a green spring 60-80 and just weight in the heel no weight in middle or tip. just my opinion
Backwoods M Max
New member
I should have the parts by the end of the week and then the testing can begin. In a full blown mountain sled, it seems the only benefit of the dual angle is to have a custom cut with a short initial angle for initial acceleration. With the progressive I'm running right now it's no Bueno. If the heel clickers will pull hard and overcome the slow upshift of a 43 because of the heel, then I'll achieve what I want. Right now peak rpm are my first issue. I'm not able to pull peak rpm. If I start with the 43 at 70 I know it will shift like stock. I can go flog it with the new weights and I know I'll get to peak rpm. I also have a 45 coming which the guy at HC seems to love, so I can try that too. At least I'm headed in the right direction now.
Backwoods M Max
New member
Heel clickers box was sitting on the front steps as we rushed out the door to the hospital for my sons delvery. I guess they will have to wait a week, didn't even get to open the box.
40/10,s in a 700 mm. 4-5 grams heel, 3.2 gram bolt inner with tip empty & stock secondary. use the red primary spring.
http://www.totallyamaha.net/forums/threads/22939-Tips-for-heel-clicker-clutching/page3
http://www.totallyamaha.net/forums/threads/22939-Tips-for-heel-clicker-clutching/page3
Backwoods M Max
New member
Thanks for the link. Is that a single pipe or triple pipes? I got the weights the other day. Came set up with 5 washers under the bolt in the heel and the arm empty. I added a 6th washer for a little lower engagement. If Turk's setup was for stock single I'll use the 3.2 in the inner hole and throw them in.
BTW newest yamaha fan is here, mom and baby is doing great. He'll have to wait till next winter for a ride around the yard on the snoscoot with dad though.
Called and checked with super torquer, said for my application that 5 washers in the shoulder and the red spring should be real close. I added 1 washer for just a tad lower engagement and need to put a drop of thread locker on it just to feel good. He said without pipes and a deep lug track no arm weight is needed.
Last edited:
Backwoods M Max
New member
Funny you said that because that's how it came. For a single pipe redhead with a deep lug track they don't run any arm weight. I bought a 45 straight helix to try and that may be a good set up snow helix. He threw a nice billet 43 helix in the box which is stock. I think the 45 may be a good hard set up snow helix and the 43 a light fluffy super deep snow helix.