Hi
Installed a heelclicker kit to my primary clutch today.. It`s the new type, also called twospeed kit..
I innstalled it after the instructions, with red spring, a bolt in the center hole, and a bolt + washer at the shoulder..
This is supposed to give me engagement at 4600rpm, and top end around 8800.. Havent tried top end yet, but im going to this afternoon..
When i tried it, drivin it up on the trailer, i noticed it did not engage before 5400+... I think this is WAY to much for my driving style.. I will try to put in 1 more washer at the shoulder to get it down 1-200rpm`s, but still it aint enough..
Why does it engage so late, when the instructions said alot less rpm`s ?
I have a brand new belt, and the clutch has been looked over, so it slides in/out as a dream without the spring in it..
I also have got a white spring in the kit, wich is supposed to lower engagement with another 200rpm`s, but then i guess the wheigt setup from the chart, on the wheight arms is way off ?
I think around 4500 would be acceptable, so i dont have to sink to the bottom of the snow everytime i want to take off hehe..
Installed a heelclicker kit to my primary clutch today.. It`s the new type, also called twospeed kit..
I innstalled it after the instructions, with red spring, a bolt in the center hole, and a bolt + washer at the shoulder..
This is supposed to give me engagement at 4600rpm, and top end around 8800.. Havent tried top end yet, but im going to this afternoon..
When i tried it, drivin it up on the trailer, i noticed it did not engage before 5400+... I think this is WAY to much for my driving style.. I will try to put in 1 more washer at the shoulder to get it down 1-200rpm`s, but still it aint enough..
Why does it engage so late, when the instructions said alot less rpm`s ?
I have a brand new belt, and the clutch has been looked over, so it slides in/out as a dream without the spring in it..
I also have got a white spring in the kit, wich is supposed to lower engagement with another 200rpm`s, but then i guess the wheigt setup from the chart, on the wheight arms is way off ?
I think around 4500 would be acceptable, so i dont have to sink to the bottom of the snow everytime i want to take off hehe..
change_up
New member
Is this the kit where you have the arm de-couple with the shoulder or just the leveraged shoulder "dual quadrant" thing. I had the one peice leveraged shoulder and with the whole weight empty it would engage at 5000, 3 grams in shoulder and about 3 in the center it would still engage around 4500-4700. Check to see what rollers you have as they make a big difference in engagement and how the rest of the weight acts.
The wheight has a "loose" shoulder, not in one piece as the orginal wheights..
Empty, it should engage at 5400 if i read the instructions.. Now i`m running 3g at center, and 4 at the shoulder, and doing 5400+...
Rollers are standard ones, i think.. is it the diameter of them that matters?
Empty, it should engage at 5400 if i read the instructions.. Now i`m running 3g at center, and 4 at the shoulder, and doing 5400+...
Rollers are standard ones, i think.. is it the diameter of them that matters?
Your belt was down in the secondary & after a short blast your engagement will be where it should be due to the belt going back to the top.
**sj**
Life Member
larger roller diameter equals less shift force.....and would therefore require more weight to equal the same results
with less weight and a smaller diameter roller
with less weight and a smaller diameter roller
Millinocket Rocket
New member
i had to put like 6 or 6.5 grams (lg. screw w/3 or 4 washers) in the heel of those hammertimes to get my engagement down to 4500- 4700 with red spring. maybe after that new spring gets broken in it will come down a little more?
I went for i ride this afternoon, and got a good feeling how it worked..
Before i went, i put in some washers between the backplate and the sheave, to get the tension of the spring down a little.. Around 6mm spacers for every bolt..
Then i went for another washer on the shoulder, so now i was going with 5 grams shoulder, and 3 grams center..
Engaged at approx 5200rpm, and really went off at 5500+.. Full trhottle gave me 8600, so i should actually remove at least 1 washer, perhaps two, at the shoulder to get my rpms to 8800..
(BTW: DAAMN how powerful these sled are! Ski lift up to 60+mph, sitting down..! Never experienced something similar before
)
If i go with 3-4 washer like milli-rocket above, the top rpm`s would be 83-8400 or so, (?) and thats not something i want, with my triple slp setup.. (btw, did 3-4 washers go clear of the spider??) I want 8800-8900rpm top end, and 4000-4500 engage if possible..
I have this white spring to, that i am going to try next time i ride.. But i liked this setup i have, for it`s good flat rpm curve all the way up to high speeds..!
I`m afraid going with the white spring would make tuning a living hell for me, since i havent got a tuning setup tips, like the red spring setup in the manual..
Perhaps someone has a clue for a good white spring wheight setup for a piped viper?
Thanx for helping a novice viper owner!!
Ola
Before i went, i put in some washers between the backplate and the sheave, to get the tension of the spring down a little.. Around 6mm spacers for every bolt..
Then i went for another washer on the shoulder, so now i was going with 5 grams shoulder, and 3 grams center..
Engaged at approx 5200rpm, and really went off at 5500+.. Full trhottle gave me 8600, so i should actually remove at least 1 washer, perhaps two, at the shoulder to get my rpms to 8800..
(BTW: DAAMN how powerful these sled are! Ski lift up to 60+mph, sitting down..! Never experienced something similar before
)If i go with 3-4 washer like milli-rocket above, the top rpm`s would be 83-8400 or so, (?) and thats not something i want, with my triple slp setup.. (btw, did 3-4 washers go clear of the spider??) I want 8800-8900rpm top end, and 4000-4500 engage if possible..
I have this white spring to, that i am going to try next time i ride.. But i liked this setup i have, for it`s good flat rpm curve all the way up to high speeds..!
I`m afraid going with the white spring would make tuning a living hell for me, since i havent got a tuning setup tips, like the red spring setup in the manual..
Perhaps someone has a clue for a good white spring wheight setup for a piped viper?
Thanx for helping a novice viper owner!!
Ola
Millinocket Rocket
New member
ola-- the 3 or 4 washers seemed to clear fine, and not sure if that will bring top rpm's down or not... i'm very novice at clutching myself. the white spring will engage lower-- i would talk to mrviper about the hc's. he knows them well
mrviper, as in the user with 5 posts?
I`ll link this thread to him, if he is the guy..
It looks like this forum has alot of tech heads, so i am hoping for a good discussion and tips from others as well
I`ll link this thread to him, if he is the guy..
It looks like this forum has alot of tech heads, so i am hoping for a good discussion and tips from others as well
change_up
New member
What rocket meant was MrViper700... should have more than 5 posts lol!
Millinocket Rocket
New member
exactly- what change up said^^ didn't realize there was another one! lol
Ok, i sent mrviper700 a pm
seems like i have 14.5mm rollers..
I put in the white spring now, but havent tried it yet.. Lack of snow... I`ll fire it up in the garage at daytime tomorrow, just to see when it engages hehe..
Still wondering about how much this will affect my wheight setup though..
seems like i have 14.5mm rollers..
I put in the white spring now, but havent tried it yet.. Lack of snow... I`ll fire it up in the garage at daytime tomorrow, just to see when it engages hehe..
Still wondering about how much this will affect my wheight setup though..
Just a thought
Here is a thought for you based on my personal experience with those two speed weights. First, call Supertorquer and ask to trade them in on some 40-10BY weights. Second, buy yourself some 15mm rollers. Third, start over again.
Madmatt
Here is a thought for you based on my personal experience with those two speed weights. First, call Supertorquer and ask to trade them in on some 40-10BY weights. Second, buy yourself some 15mm rollers. Third, start over again.
Madmatt
Tried starting up the sled in the garage now, with white spring, and the same wheights as before.. 3grams center, 5 at the shoulder.. (but i think i have to let atleast 2 grams go to get the top end right..)
Now it engage at 5000rpm.. Still to high...
Dammit.....
Now it engage at 5000rpm.. Still to high...
Dammit.....
Millinocket Rocket
New member
Madmatt said:
matt, what are the 40-10by weights- the regular heelclickers? won't those bigger rollers increase engagement?
Yes
Yes, the larger rollers will increase RPM's and engagement but you can easily load up the heel in the 40-10BY's and get the engagement down to 4000. Trouble is, now I've screwed up this thread......you guys are talking about the hammertimes and I'm talking about the 40-10BY's. Perhaps to get the engagement down you should try the white spring from Supertorquer. The grey wont do anything for you because it has the same initial force as the red. All I'm saying is that clutching is hard enough with a regular fixed weight. When you go to the hammertimes it adds another variable which is the last thing most people need. Certainly the last thing my pee sized brain needed. I put in my time with the Hammertimes (1 year) and I just decided that they were not for me.......that's why I said before that this was my personal opinion. There has GOT to be someone here on this site with a set up for these weights. Have you talked to MRVIPER700 yet Ola? He has a set of Hammertimes.....I saw them when I was at his shop....they were in a cardboard box on the shelf covered with dust.
Madmatt
Yes, the larger rollers will increase RPM's and engagement but you can easily load up the heel in the 40-10BY's and get the engagement down to 4000. Trouble is, now I've screwed up this thread......you guys are talking about the hammertimes and I'm talking about the 40-10BY's. Perhaps to get the engagement down you should try the white spring from Supertorquer. The grey wont do anything for you because it has the same initial force as the red. All I'm saying is that clutching is hard enough with a regular fixed weight. When you go to the hammertimes it adds another variable which is the last thing most people need. Certainly the last thing my pee sized brain needed. I put in my time with the Hammertimes (1 year) and I just decided that they were not for me.......that's why I said before that this was my personal opinion. There has GOT to be someone here on this site with a set up for these weights. Have you talked to MRVIPER700 yet Ola? He has a set of Hammertimes.....I saw them when I was at his shop....they were in a cardboard box on the shelf covered with dust.
Madmatt
Read more carefully
OK, sorry, my bad.....I have to read more carefully. I see now that you tried the white spring. Now I don't know what to tell you. Ask someone smarter I guess or trade them in!!!
Madmatt
OK, sorry, my bad.....I have to read more carefully. I see now that you tried the white spring. Now I don't know what to tell you. Ask someone smarter I guess or trade them in!!!
Madmatt
Yes i have talked to mrviper700..
He told me to go red spring, and load up the shoulder with washers.. 5-6 of them..
This will lower my top rpm`s even more i think.. But if i remove the center bolt/wheight, then it might work out..?
I have mounted the white spring now, without removing the clutch from the engine, so i am going to test it out before removing clutch for replacing red again.. the red is a living hell to mount.. hehe..
My idea is to go with the white spring, and perhaps remove the center bolt, and do all the tuning at the shoulder.. This would make the lowest engage, with acceptable top end i guess..
If it dont work out this time, i might go for the standard yamaha setup again.. and use the heelclicker kit as the most expensive paperwheight i own...
I want to ride the sled, rather than watching my friends go, leaving me behind with my tools every time..
Well , we`ll see what happens after a little more tuning on the white spring setup..
He told me to go red spring, and load up the shoulder with washers.. 5-6 of them..
This will lower my top rpm`s even more i think.. But if i remove the center bolt/wheight, then it might work out..?
I have mounted the white spring now, without removing the clutch from the engine, so i am going to test it out before removing clutch for replacing red again.. the red is a living hell to mount.. hehe..
My idea is to go with the white spring, and perhaps remove the center bolt, and do all the tuning at the shoulder.. This would make the lowest engage, with acceptable top end i guess..
If it dont work out this time, i might go for the standard yamaha setup again.. and use the heelclicker kit as the most expensive paperwheight i own...
I want to ride the sled, rather than watching my friends go, leaving me behind with my tools every time..
Well , we`ll see what happens after a little more tuning on the white spring setup..
BUT, something important:
How many washers can i use at the shoulder on these hammertimes, without interference with the spider/plate.. Or anything else for that matter..
?
How many washers can i use at the shoulder on these hammertimes, without interference with the spider/plate.. Or anything else for that matter..
?
things to do:
ok, lets understand how clutching works here. First off you will never and I mean never, get heelclickers to work good in a 2 stroke using a low rate primary spring!!!!, you wont be able to add any weight to them and they are useless then. take the low rate springs, the white, grey, blue, and throw them into your local lake, take the instructions and start a fire in your fireplace with them, at least you get something useable from them then.
Now, to use these h/c weights or even the hammertime,2 speed or whatever name randy has for them now you need the red primary spring!! that spring is a 230/360 spring, this stiff spring allows you to run alot of weight in the clutch weight, this is a good thing, this is what clamps the belt.
There are like 10 differnt combo's he had on the 2spd, hammertime weights, I asked this guy before if he has the alum. based arms or the steel, big differance in weight, so this is important, what do the arms weigh without the hardware in them?
tips for use with h/c weights:
1.) use 15 or 15.6 rollers-I know, you wanna know why now,- you cant simply hook up the smaller rollers, they explode with too much low end and it is about impossible to get traction, and its a much better shift curve with the larger rollers. You run more weight in the arms with bigger rollers!
2.) Use red primary spring only, its the only spring that allows you to run any amount of weight in the arms so to make the h/c advantageous to use.
3.) If your running a srx or viper with stock pipe at 8500rpm, then you want to use alot of heel weight and tip weight only, leave the middle hole empty, this allows you to tune in the engagement, and keep the top end of the sled, by using the middle hole it slows down the response from the engine and ruins the shift curve.
4.) you need a shallow finsih angle to use h/c's anything from a 50'ish start to a 34 finish works good, some of the common helix I use all the time are: 50/36, 51/38, 48/34, 48/36, 49/36, you get the idea, stay shallow on the finish and it will pull very respctable topend and allows you to run lots of tip weight, so now your hanging onto the belt in both the primary and the secondary. The h/c weights already act like a progressive angle helix, so your not gonna be up in the big helix start/finish angles now. A shallow finish does 2 things it clamps the belt harder in the secondary and does not require as much spring tension from the secondary spring because of this, by using only enough rear secondary spring tension it will allow the sled to run faster on topend, you only want to control the shift with the rear spring tension, not over power it!
5.)Moving onto the piped sleds, sxr, viper , etc sleds that run over 8600rpms, I am talking in the neighborhod of 8800-9100rpm, this pretty much covers all the pipes out there. You want to run as much heel weight as the motor will pull without bogging it down, then you will use a slight amount of weight in the CENTER hole, and leaving the TIP empty. The reason is this, when its piped its has a narrower torq/power band most of the time and when its shifted hard it has a hard time to recover before being brought down back into the meat of the power curve. Its alot like ripping a std shift 5.0 mustang, you side step the clutch at 6000rpm, and the tires are burning, you keep the gas mashed and then you shift to 2nd, car is starting to move out very quickly, then you shift to 5th, the motor will bog and just make noise, has no real pull to it, takes along time and distance to recover from the overshift. When you have pipes on a sled, this becomes more evident.
6.) In some applications I run 5,6,7 washers in the heel to get the clutch to hang onto the belt, this gives you a nice low engagement and really hangs onto the belt for a super good holeshot, will stretch your arms. stay around 4000rpm for snow. I also sometimes run the long bolt and 3-4 washers on the tip, the only thing you have to do is watch the clearance to the spider, it sometimes requires you to simply just face off the bolt slightly on the rounded head on a grinder to clear the spider sides, easy to check, just swing the weight thru its cycle without the primary spring in it.
This is the basic things to do, you have to test, retest, test, to get it fine tuned, but h/c's work very well and I use them all the time. I have not found any weights that are close to the same kind of clamping power other then the supertips that srxspec sells are equally good, I am working with them now, they show great potential. I have set up enough sleds that I can just about guess to within a 1-200rpm range of what will work, these weights work!!, but you have to follow some of these guidelines, or youll be pulling your hair out
!
ok, lets understand how clutching works here. First off you will never and I mean never, get heelclickers to work good in a 2 stroke using a low rate primary spring!!!!, you wont be able to add any weight to them and they are useless then. take the low rate springs, the white, grey, blue, and throw them into your local lake, take the instructions and start a fire in your fireplace with them, at least you get something useable from them then.
Now, to use these h/c weights or even the hammertime,2 speed or whatever name randy has for them now you need the red primary spring!! that spring is a 230/360 spring, this stiff spring allows you to run alot of weight in the clutch weight, this is a good thing, this is what clamps the belt.
There are like 10 differnt combo's he had on the 2spd, hammertime weights, I asked this guy before if he has the alum. based arms or the steel, big differance in weight, so this is important, what do the arms weigh without the hardware in them?
tips for use with h/c weights:
1.) use 15 or 15.6 rollers-I know, you wanna know why now,- you cant simply hook up the smaller rollers, they explode with too much low end and it is about impossible to get traction, and its a much better shift curve with the larger rollers. You run more weight in the arms with bigger rollers!
2.) Use red primary spring only, its the only spring that allows you to run any amount of weight in the arms so to make the h/c advantageous to use.
3.) If your running a srx or viper with stock pipe at 8500rpm, then you want to use alot of heel weight and tip weight only, leave the middle hole empty, this allows you to tune in the engagement, and keep the top end of the sled, by using the middle hole it slows down the response from the engine and ruins the shift curve.
4.) you need a shallow finsih angle to use h/c's anything from a 50'ish start to a 34 finish works good, some of the common helix I use all the time are: 50/36, 51/38, 48/34, 48/36, 49/36, you get the idea, stay shallow on the finish and it will pull very respctable topend and allows you to run lots of tip weight, so now your hanging onto the belt in both the primary and the secondary. The h/c weights already act like a progressive angle helix, so your not gonna be up in the big helix start/finish angles now. A shallow finish does 2 things it clamps the belt harder in the secondary and does not require as much spring tension from the secondary spring because of this, by using only enough rear secondary spring tension it will allow the sled to run faster on topend, you only want to control the shift with the rear spring tension, not over power it!
5.)Moving onto the piped sleds, sxr, viper , etc sleds that run over 8600rpms, I am talking in the neighborhod of 8800-9100rpm, this pretty much covers all the pipes out there. You want to run as much heel weight as the motor will pull without bogging it down, then you will use a slight amount of weight in the CENTER hole, and leaving the TIP empty. The reason is this, when its piped its has a narrower torq/power band most of the time and when its shifted hard it has a hard time to recover before being brought down back into the meat of the power curve. Its alot like ripping a std shift 5.0 mustang, you side step the clutch at 6000rpm, and the tires are burning, you keep the gas mashed and then you shift to 2nd, car is starting to move out very quickly, then you shift to 5th, the motor will bog and just make noise, has no real pull to it, takes along time and distance to recover from the overshift. When you have pipes on a sled, this becomes more evident.
6.) In some applications I run 5,6,7 washers in the heel to get the clutch to hang onto the belt, this gives you a nice low engagement and really hangs onto the belt for a super good holeshot, will stretch your arms. stay around 4000rpm for snow. I also sometimes run the long bolt and 3-4 washers on the tip, the only thing you have to do is watch the clearance to the spider, it sometimes requires you to simply just face off the bolt slightly on the rounded head on a grinder to clear the spider sides, easy to check, just swing the weight thru its cycle without the primary spring in it.
This is the basic things to do, you have to test, retest, test, to get it fine tuned, but h/c's work very well and I use them all the time. I have not found any weights that are close to the same kind of clamping power other then the supertips that srxspec sells are equally good, I am working with them now, they show great potential. I have set up enough sleds that I can just about guess to within a 1-200rpm range of what will work, these weights work!!, but you have to follow some of these guidelines, or youll be pulling your hair out
!
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