iahacker
Member
Hey mrviper700
I've been following this thread for Ola looking for some of the same answers for the 2 speed weights as Super Torquer is little help. Maybe you can get us both in the right direction at the same time. I have a completely stock 2001 SRX. I have already read the previous post several times.
I have a set of 40-20 2 speeds and a set of 40-10 2 speeds provided as a fix for the 40-20's. These things pull hard, if they didn't, I would have given up on them by now. Here's what I have seen...red spring only.
1. Engagment with both is too high. I've stacked weight on the shoulder of the 40-10's and it seems to make little difference. Tried a little weight on the 40-20's and it made no difference and the engine luged down worse on top end.
2. I never get the 8500 rpm's through shift out. Usually around 8,300 then drops.
3. When approaching top speed, the rpm's drop by 200 to 400 no matter which secondary I have on.
4. Top speed ranges from 85 to 105 on the spedo depending on which secondary I have on.
5. Randy sent the 40-10's and said to run them as he sent them. There was 4 grams in the shoulder and 4 in the tip. Result was...had to rev the crap out of it to make it move, acceleration flat and still only 90 top end. Engagment was like 5,400, it reved to about 9,000 shifting out and dropped to about 8,300 top end. Had the Team secondary on at that time.
According to Randy and his web page, you need to ad tip weight to get the top end speed back. Seems backwards to me when the rpm's are already falling off.
As for secondaries: I have my stock yamaha with a red spring and 47 helix. I also have a Team with a 48/34 and a 46/34 twin track. Last week I baught an Advandt-Edge roller for the stock yamaha clutch. Have a silver spring. Told Advant-Edge I had the 2 speed weights and asked them to recomend the helix. They sent a 49/39. Here's what I see with the secondaries:
Stock secondary: shift out seems flat, belt gets warm and top speed of only about 90. RPM around 8,200 and drops.
Team secondary with either helix: Shifts out really well, belt gets hot and top speed is 90 with the 40-10's and 105 with the 40-20's. RPM's around 8,400 and drops.
Advant-Edge Kit with silver spring: Shift out not bad, but not as good as the Team clutch. Belt stay fairly cool. Rpm's only 8,100 and drops to about 7,800.
Only other thing I'm considering is jetting carbs down a little to try to get a little more power to pull top end. Currently stock jetting and seems fat.
I think I'm after the same thing Ola is. Lower engagment, 8,500 rpm shifting and maintain it at top end. last year with stock clutching it hit 115 plus many times and no rpm issues. It's kind of like paying for golf lessons and playing worse!
This is a lot of information. Please chim in with your advice.
Thanks for your help in advance!
I've been following this thread for Ola looking for some of the same answers for the 2 speed weights as Super Torquer is little help. Maybe you can get us both in the right direction at the same time. I have a completely stock 2001 SRX. I have already read the previous post several times.
I have a set of 40-20 2 speeds and a set of 40-10 2 speeds provided as a fix for the 40-20's. These things pull hard, if they didn't, I would have given up on them by now. Here's what I have seen...red spring only.
1. Engagment with both is too high. I've stacked weight on the shoulder of the 40-10's and it seems to make little difference. Tried a little weight on the 40-20's and it made no difference and the engine luged down worse on top end.
2. I never get the 8500 rpm's through shift out. Usually around 8,300 then drops.
3. When approaching top speed, the rpm's drop by 200 to 400 no matter which secondary I have on.
4. Top speed ranges from 85 to 105 on the spedo depending on which secondary I have on.
5. Randy sent the 40-10's and said to run them as he sent them. There was 4 grams in the shoulder and 4 in the tip. Result was...had to rev the crap out of it to make it move, acceleration flat and still only 90 top end. Engagment was like 5,400, it reved to about 9,000 shifting out and dropped to about 8,300 top end. Had the Team secondary on at that time.
According to Randy and his web page, you need to ad tip weight to get the top end speed back. Seems backwards to me when the rpm's are already falling off.
As for secondaries: I have my stock yamaha with a red spring and 47 helix. I also have a Team with a 48/34 and a 46/34 twin track. Last week I baught an Advandt-Edge roller for the stock yamaha clutch. Have a silver spring. Told Advant-Edge I had the 2 speed weights and asked them to recomend the helix. They sent a 49/39. Here's what I see with the secondaries:
Stock secondary: shift out seems flat, belt gets warm and top speed of only about 90. RPM around 8,200 and drops.
Team secondary with either helix: Shifts out really well, belt gets hot and top speed is 90 with the 40-10's and 105 with the 40-20's. RPM's around 8,400 and drops.
Advant-Edge Kit with silver spring: Shift out not bad, but not as good as the Team clutch. Belt stay fairly cool. Rpm's only 8,100 and drops to about 7,800.
Only other thing I'm considering is jetting carbs down a little to try to get a little more power to pull top end. Currently stock jetting and seems fat.
I think I'm after the same thing Ola is. Lower engagment, 8,500 rpm shifting and maintain it at top end. last year with stock clutching it hit 115 plus many times and no rpm issues. It's kind of like paying for golf lessons and playing worse!
This is a lot of information. Please chim in with your advice.
Thanks for your help in advance!
Srxspec
Your #1 performance shop!
iahacker, you answered your own question in this post. Your rpm is hitting 8,200 rpm initially, this is telling you that the beginning angle on the helix is very close to correct (47* in this case). You said the rpm's drop, but didn't say how far they drop, this tells us that you have too much finish angle!! The highest start angle I would recommend is a 46 and finish angle down around a 34. Here is a list of helix's that Dalton offers that I would recommend:
- 46/38
- 46/36
- 46/34
- 45/39
- 44/38
- 44/36
The 44/36 is what I would recommend, this will allow you to add some more heel weight and drop the engagement and allow you enough adjustability to have the rpm correct on the top end as well. I think I even have a 44/36 helix that I will send you free of charge to try at first, you just cover the shipping.
I wouldn't even begin trying to tune the roller secondaries. All that is happening is you're compounding the top end problems you are having.
mrviper700 said:ok, lets understand how clutching works here. First off you will never and I mean never, get heelclickers to work good in a 2 stroke using a low rate primary spring!!!!, you wont be able to add any weight to them and they are useless then. take the low rate springs, the white, grey, blue, and throw them into your local lake, take the instructions and start a fire in your fireplace with them, at least you get something useable from them then.
Now, to use these h/c weights or even the hammertime,2 speed or whatever name randy has for them now you need the red primary spring!! that spring is a 230/360 spring, this stiff spring allows you to run alot of weight in the clutch weight, this is a good thing, this is what clamps the belt.
There are like 10 differnt combo's he had on the 2spd, hammertime weights, I asked this guy before if he has the alum. based arms or the steel, big differance in weight, so this is important, what do the arms weigh without the hardware in them?
tips for use with h/c weights:
1.) use 15 or 15.6 rollers-I know, you wanna know why now,- you cant simply hook up the smaller rollers, they explode with too much low end and it is about impossible to get traction, and its a much better shift curve with the larger rollers. You run more weight in the arms with bigger rollers!
2.) Use red primary spring only, its the only spring that allows you to run any amount of weight in the arms so to make the h/c advantageous to use.
3.) If your running a srx or viper with stock pipe at 8500rpm, then you want to use alot of heel weight and tip weight only, leave the middle hole empty, this allows you to tune in the engagement, and keep the top end of the sled, by using the middle hole it slows down the response from the engine and ruins the shift curve.
4.) you need a shallow finsih angle to use h/c's anything from a 50'ish start to a 34 finish works good, some of the common helix I use all the time are: 50/36, 51/38, 48/34, 48/36, 49/36, you get the idea, stay shallow on the finish and it will pull very respctable topend and allows you to run lots of tip weight, so now your hanging onto the belt in both the primary and the secondary. The h/c weights already act like a progressive angle helix, so your not gonna be up in the big helix start/finish angles now. A shallow finish does 2 things it clamps the belt harder in the secondary and does not require as much spring tension from the secondary spring because of this, by using only enough rear secondary spring tension it will allow the sled to run faster on topend, you only want to control the shift with the rear spring tension, not over power it!
5.)Moving onto the piped sleds, sxr, viper , etc sleds that run over 8600rpms, I am talking in the neighborhod of 8800-9100rpm, this pretty much covers all the pipes out there. You want to run as much heel weight as the motor will pull without bogging it down, then you will use a slight amount of weight in the CENTER hole, and leaving the TIP empty. The reason is this, when its piped its has a narrower torq/power band most of the time and when its shifted hard it has a hard time to recover before being brought down back into the meat of the power curve. Its alot like ripping a std shift 5.0 mustang, you side step the clutch at 6000rpm, and the tires are burning, you keep the gas mashed and then you shift to 2nd, car is starting to move out very quickly, then you shift to 5th, the motor will bog and just make noise, has no real pull to it, takes along time and distance to recover from the overshift. When you have pipes on a sled, this becomes more evident.
6.) In some applications I run 5,6,7 washers in the heel to get the clutch to hang onto the belt, this gives you a nice low engagement and really hangs onto the belt for a super good holeshot, will stretch your arms. stay around 4000rpm for snow. I also sometimes run the long bolt and 3-4 washers on the tip, the only thing you have to do is watch the clearance to the spider, it sometimes requires you to simply just face off the bolt slightly on the rounded head on a grinder to clear the spider sides, easy to check, just swing the weight thru its cycle without the primary spring in it.
This is the basic things to do, you have to test, retest, test, to get it fine tuned, but h/c's work very well and I use them all the time. I have not found any weights that are close to the same kind of clamping power other then the supertips that srxspec sells are equally good, I am working with them now, they show great potential. I have set up enough sleds that I can just about guess to within a 1-200rpm range of what will work, these weights work!!, but you have to follow some of these guidelines, or youll be pulling your hair out
Thats what i call a great reply!!
Just for you writing this, i will put back the red spring today..
As for the weight, my kit is called 40-10.. That should tell you the weight, or shouldnt it? I havent got a low rate weight to measure them on my own
BUT
With red spring, only a bolt (3 gram) center, + bolt and 2 washers (5 grams) at shoulder, i was revving 8600 at full throttle.. This tells me that i must lower the center weight..
How would this work if i out 5-6 (maybe even 7) at the shoulder, and REMOVE the center weight bolt?? (there are no weights between 0 and 3 grams in my kit for placing at the center location)
Would this lower my engage, and raise the top end to 8800-8900 ?
put 5-6 washers in the heel , then leave the bolt in the middle!!!!!. Now, I went all the way back to your first post and no where did I see what helix and secondary spring you have???, if its the stock 47, and red spring, theres your problem with topend rpm!!, see my tips below again and read the helix suggestions, read tips 4 and 6 again and apply them your problems will be gone.
mrviper700 said:
I have stock helix.. And the sec. spring is in the "6" spot, but this about preload at the sec clutch, is something i havent looked at yet.. I guess i will search my way here at TY to understand this.
Top rpms are 8600 from the very first blip of full trhottle, and up to at least 70+mph.. Just in case you thought i ment top speed rpms.. ( guessing this has alot to say about choosing helix)
If i will get higher rpms at every speed, only by changing helix, then thats what i will do..
I`m trying to see the logic in this clutch setup stuff, but it shure isnt easy.
Thanks for youre time, this will probably solve my clutch issues..
Last edited:
iahacker
Member
Srxspec, thanks for your help. I really appreciate your offer. My Team clutch already has a 46/34 helix in it. I'm thinking with a little heavier spring, it might not be bad. I must give Randy at Super Torquer credit for that. He did tell my I would have to put a heavier spring in the Team. But, he also said it wouldn't work very well and the belt would slip...so I didn't persue it.
After a couple of days of calling and leaving messages at Advant-Edge, I was finally able to talk to them about my clutch issues. Rich turns out to be a darn nice guy and very helpful. He told me the same thing you are saying and are already sending me a different helix for the R-3. I specifically asked about what helix to run with the 2-speed when I orderd the R-3. The question must have gotten lost between order and shipping.
Snow conditions and lack of it have made it difficult to do any real testing. Can't really tell how far the rpm drops cause there is no place to run more than a 1/4 mile. For the last four weeks, all we have is bare ice on the river. Even stuck my track to the slides once.
Ola, I appologize for jumping into your post. I hope I don't confuse your issues. When I find some things that works from others' advice and testing, I will be sure to post them here. Good luck to you.
Thanks again!
After a couple of days of calling and leaving messages at Advant-Edge, I was finally able to talk to them about my clutch issues. Rich turns out to be a darn nice guy and very helpful. He told me the same thing you are saying and are already sending me a different helix for the R-3. I specifically asked about what helix to run with the 2-speed when I orderd the R-3. The question must have gotten lost between order and shipping.
Snow conditions and lack of it have made it difficult to do any real testing. Can't really tell how far the rpm drops cause there is no place to run more than a 1/4 mile. For the last four weeks, all we have is bare ice on the river. Even stuck my track to the slides once.
Ola, I appologize for jumping into your post. I hope I don't confuse your issues. When I find some things that works from others' advice and testing, I will be sure to post them here. Good luck to you.
Thanks again!
yes Ola, thats what you need to pursure, the helix and rear secondary spring. a 48/38 helix and green secondary spring is what you need to find.
Again, use 5-6 washers, plus the 1 lock washer on the long bolt in the heel, and your engagement will be low, then with the 3.3 bolt in the middle hole, AND the use of a 48/38 helix with green spring a 70 degrees twist your rpms will be up where they belong at mid and upper rpm running.
just by winding your current red spring to 80-90 degrees twist, this is 6 on the helix and 2 in the clutch(80), or 6 and 3(90)will help, 60 is way too low with H/C weights, remember me saying before" h/c weights act like a progressive angle helix".
Again, use 5-6 washers, plus the 1 lock washer on the long bolt in the heel, and your engagement will be low, then with the 3.3 bolt in the middle hole, AND the use of a 48/38 helix with green spring a 70 degrees twist your rpms will be up where they belong at mid and upper rpm running.
just by winding your current red spring to 80-90 degrees twist, this is 6 on the helix and 2 in the clutch(80), or 6 and 3(90)will help, 60 is way too low with H/C weights, remember me saying before" h/c weights act like a progressive angle helix".
Last edited:
mrviper700 said:
Then this will become the setup for my sled hehe.. Thanks alot, you are really at great help !!
The green spring for sec, is this a yamaha item? Or perhaps heelclicker?
I know of a dealer that can supply me with a 48/38 helix, but i dont want to buy the "wrong green spring" if there are several types of them.
And the sec spring thats on my sled now, is a black one.. The last owner claimed it was the standard yamaha spring, original on this sled..
ps: i tryed out the white spring today. Just for the test of it, since i had put it in anyway..
Engage was at 4700 (acceptable, and nice, not as hard slamming as before), and top rpm at low speed was 8800.. (same weights as before, 3.3 center, 5.3 shoulder..).. But at higher speeds it dropped to 8500rpm..
Just thought i should tell how it responded to the white spring
I actually liked it alot, but 8500 is way to low (and in the middle of hell, thinking about the ignition map..)..Wondered about adjusting sec spring stiffer, hoping to keep the rpm`s higher, but did`nt do it..
Last edited:
Millinocket Rocket
New member
ola- the black secondary spring you have in there right now is actually red- if it's the stock one. if you look on your spring you should see a red painted dot. the green spring will be black with a green dot painted on it.-- and yes it's a yamaha spring.
all yamaha secondary springs are black, but if you look closely youll see a little red paint stripe on your stock spring, the yamaha spring I am suggesting has a green spot on a black spring, the part number for the spring from yamaha is 90508-556A2-00
mrviper700 said:
I`m outta words!
I`ll order a helix and a spring, and try it out..!
48/38 helix and green spring ordered, a week or so in delivery time..
But since i allready have asked a million Q`s, i guess i can go for one more?
I looked up my sec clutch spring today, and how it was preloaded.. In the middle of the clutch, there where "1" "2" and "3" positions.. The spring was in "1" there..
In the helix, the positions said "0" "3" "6" and "9".. 0 and 3 was close, then a big gap to 6 and 9 that also was close to each other..
The spring was in "6"..
Since i am waiting for the new helix and spring, i thought it could be fun to learn a little about sec clutch tuning as well..
I tried to make "80" with "2" and "6", but this was over 1/4 turn more twist than before !? ( i thought this should be only a little harder than "1"/"6" position) This was so tight/firm that i was REALLY struggling trying to get it in place.. (didnt make it, gave up hehe.. but its do-able with a little more effort and patience )
I went for "1" and "9" instead, that gave me a little more twist than before.. Perhaps 1/8, maybe less..
Does this make any sense?? (cause i know my english sux)
Hoping this will keep my full throttle rpm`s a little higher, nothing else..
(not a permanent solution, only for testing out and learning a thing or two..)
Havent tried it yet though... The snow went away when i bought the damn sled so i have to transport it up to the snow for testing...
But since i allready have asked a million Q`s, i guess i can go for one more?
I looked up my sec clutch spring today, and how it was preloaded.. In the middle of the clutch, there where "1" "2" and "3" positions.. The spring was in "1" there..
In the helix, the positions said "0" "3" "6" and "9".. 0 and 3 was close, then a big gap to 6 and 9 that also was close to each other..
The spring was in "6"..
Since i am waiting for the new helix and spring, i thought it could be fun to learn a little about sec clutch tuning as well..
I tried to make "80" with "2" and "6", but this was over 1/4 turn more twist than before !? ( i thought this should be only a little harder than "1"/"6" position) This was so tight/firm that i was REALLY struggling trying to get it in place.. (didnt make it, gave up hehe.. but its do-able with a little more effort and patience
)I went for "1" and "9" instead, that gave me a little more twist than before.. Perhaps 1/8, maybe less..
Does this make any sense?? (cause i know my english sux)
Hoping this will keep my full throttle rpm`s a little higher, nothing else..
(not a permanent solution, only for testing out and learning a thing or two..)
Havent tried it yet though... The snow went away when i bought the damn sled so i have to transport it up to the snow for testing...
Last edited:
Just came up with an idea.. If i change from 1 - 6 (60), to 2 - 6 (80) , perhaps i should not twist the helix so much as i thought?
I marked the plate and the sec clutch, to be shure i bolted it back to where it was when i starded pulling it of the first time... And now im wondering if that was a mistake.. hehe..
I hate to not now.. It makes me wanna learn....
I marked the plate and the sec clutch, to be shure i bolted it back to where it was when i starded pulling it of the first time... And now im wondering if that was a mistake.. hehe..
I hate to not now.. It makes me wanna learn....
secondary twist
the numbers go like this, you were at 70 with 6-1, you add the 2 numbers up and x10 and thats your twist, so to be at only 60 degrees youd need 3 in the clutch and 3 on the helix.
its very easy to set the twist in the secondary if you place a old belt under the clutch backside, then simply twist the helix "clockwise" to the right and line up mounting studs, push down and start the nuts on the studs.
If you install your current red spring at 3 in the clutch and 6 in the helix, it will make a world of differance in the way the sled runs up top and midrange from just what you had it at, but the correct fix will be the helix with a stiffer rate spring, now when you get the green springand new helix try it at 70, this is 6 in the helix and 1 in the clutch.
example: 9 on the helix and 1 in the clutch is 100 degrees twist.
the numbers go like this, you were at 70 with 6-1, you add the 2 numbers up and x10 and thats your twist, so to be at only 60 degrees youd need 3 in the clutch and 3 on the helix.
its very easy to set the twist in the secondary if you place a old belt under the clutch backside, then simply twist the helix "clockwise" to the right and line up mounting studs, push down and start the nuts on the studs.
If you install your current red spring at 3 in the clutch and 6 in the helix, it will make a world of differance in the way the sled runs up top and midrange from just what you had it at, but the correct fix will be the helix with a stiffer rate spring, now when you get the green springand new helix try it at 70, this is 6 in the helix and 1 in the clutch.
example: 9 on the helix and 1 in the clutch is 100 degrees twist.
Hi again..
My POS part dealer used a month of my time, telling me he was getting my helix and spring.. But now he say that yamaha couldnt deliver the helix... Dammit....
I`ll try to get a helix somwhere else then.. Any suggestions?
But i still want to ride until it shows up..
I tried the red spring in the primary again, and put 4 washers in the heel (std short bolts), and twisted 110 degrees (9 + 2) on the sec clutch.. (70 and 90 didnt do the trick), and still the top end rpm was to low.. I`m really starting to wonder why!??! It`s aruond 8600 at first, then lowers to 8400rpm after 30mph or so.. engagment at 5000 approx..
Went back to the white spring AGAIN, (5000 engage, aint fun to ride trail with) tried it with the same twist (110) on the sec clutch, and first with 4 washers on the heel, good engagement but way to low top end rpm..
Tried it with 1 washer, got 4800 engagement, and the 8600-8400 top end like the red spring setup last time..
Both clutches are in good shape, and they move very easy in/out when trying them without the springs in them..
Heelclickers are getting a little on my nerves.. Will 8400 burn down my engine, even with running 98oct fuel? (premium here in norway)
My POS part dealer used a month of my time, telling me he was getting my helix and spring.. But now he say that yamaha couldnt deliver the helix... Dammit....
I`ll try to get a helix somwhere else then.. Any suggestions?
But i still want to ride until it shows up..
I tried the red spring in the primary again, and put 4 washers in the heel (std short bolts), and twisted 110 degrees (9 + 2) on the sec clutch.. (70 and 90 didnt do the trick), and still the top end rpm was to low.. I`m really starting to wonder why!??! It`s aruond 8600 at first, then lowers to 8400rpm after 30mph or so.. engagment at 5000 approx..
Went back to the white spring AGAIN, (5000 engage, aint fun to ride trail with) tried it with the same twist (110) on the sec clutch, and first with 4 washers on the heel, good engagement but way to low top end rpm..
Tried it with 1 washer, got 4800 engagement, and the 8600-8400 top end like the red spring setup last time..
Both clutches are in good shape, and they move very easy in/out when trying them without the springs in them..
Heelclickers are getting a little on my nerves.. Will 8400 burn down my engine, even with running 98oct fuel? (premium here in norway)
Its because of the 47 degree helix!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, this is too steep of a angle and the engine can not pull the load on topend thus your engine rpm is low on topend. thats why you need a multi angle helix with shallow finish angle!
Plain and simple, get the correct helix!!!
you dont have near enuff heel weight, you need 5-6 washers and the lock washer so your engagement speed is around 4000-4200rpm. You will never, never,never,never get it to run properly with that white spring!
I have given you all the information below in all the other post.
Plain and simple, get the correct helix!!!
you dont have near enuff heel weight, you need 5-6 washers and the lock washer so your engagement speed is around 4000-4200rpm. You will never, never,never,never get it to run properly with that white spring!
I have given you all the information below in all the other post.
mrviper700 said:
I am looking for a 48/38 helix, but cant seem to find one.. Therefor i am asking for tips where to look for it..!
ONLY reason i`m using the white spring now, is because i want to drive the damn sled in a normal way... The minute it works with a red spring, the white one`s airborne, thrown towards the woods behind my house...
I am taking youre advise`s to the very detail, but my f*cking part dealer just wasted a month of my time promising me that he was getting the helix for me..
I have ordered 15mm rollers repair-kit now, and i will order a helix and spring as soon as i can find it at a reasonable price.. My dealer now told me he wants 380$ for a helix now after a month of waiting for a helix and spring that i was promised for 100$ , so i told him to put it where the sun dont shine..!
The day i spend 380 bucks on a helix, is the day it rains fish in sahara.
I will use standard wheights before that happens.
check with srxspec here, he ships stuff out of the country all the time, he can get you the part
srxspec hasnt answerd yet, but i can get a 48/36 from rich, or a slightly used 44/38 here in norway.. Are they any good for me, or should i wait for srxspec?
48/36 will work great