Hi guy's, I installed bender pipes on my 04 Viper S at the end of last season. The dcs light was on almost steady. Now my guestion is, should i send the head to bender for the mod or buy an aftermarket head that already has even compression and better cooling? I'm not sure what bender does to the head, but I'm guessing they just shave it down to even the compression. If thats what they do i would think it would even it out, but also raise the compression? Or do they actually mill out the chambers to lower the compression? I'm also looking for reccomended jetting for running pipes at sea level after the head problem is solved.
install a 2002 srx ignition box, the timming is significantly less with this box, and eliminates the problem.
on a 2002 viper with an 01 srx box and bender pipes, cats azz, way leaner jetting, and mileage is great. NO MORE MR SQUEAKY
on a 2002 viper with an 01 srx box and bender pipes, cats azz, way leaner jetting, and mileage is great. NO MORE MR SQUEAKY
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w8tn4snow
New member
Sorry dont mean to hyjack this thread but I have an 04 Viper S also and am debating the mod issue . as it is a neccesity on the 04s . I test fit my pipes (Benders) and it wont rev over 5300 rpm it seems . then the DCS comes in and shuts it down .
Does the SRX CDI really eliminate the problem or is it just a band aid fix so the DCS doesnt work ? The folks at Bender told me that after they do the head mod the DCS still works . The DCS is a great feature especially for a piped engine which from what I hear are prone to meltdown .For the $175 they charge to do it compared to $300 + for an aftermarket head to recieve the same result its a no brainer . Besides hacking into the wiring to install the SRX box just sounds like opening a can of worms .
Does the SRX CDI really eliminate the problem or is it just a band aid fix so the DCS doesnt work ? The folks at Bender told me that after they do the head mod the DCS still works . The DCS is a great feature especially for a piped engine which from what I hear are prone to meltdown .For the $175 they charge to do it compared to $300 + for an aftermarket head to recieve the same result its a no brainer . Besides hacking into the wiring to install the SRX box just sounds like opening a can of worms .
ExpertXViper
New member
w8tn4snow said:
Theres no hacking into any wires to convert to a SRX CDI at least for a 02 Viper converting to a 01 SRX CDI. All you do is add a wire to and ground it to the frame. But again this is for a 02-03 Viper converting into a 01 SRX CDI. I HAVENT read anyone converting a 04 Viper with DCS to a 02 SRX DCS CDI. So Id be careful before doing that conversion.
w8tn4snow
New member
Oh , I guess I thought i read somewhere you needed to tap into a few wires in the harness to use the SRX CDI . Either way If the DCS doesnt work afterwards then in my opinion it isnt worth doing .
I'm not an expert, I don't think DCS would stop it from reving over 6K. Sounds TORS issue to me.
JeepTherapy
New member
I also have the bender pipes for a DCS equipped Viper. Still debating the modded head VS aftermarket head. It is the DCS that stops the motor from going over 6k, not the TORS. I think the head mod from Bender is the way to go. They are the ones that have spent the cash to test their pipes and make sure what works. After speaking with them, I think I decided the extra money for the aftermarket head is not money well spent compared to the $175 to have the head milled.
bufalobob
Member
be cautious about purchasing after market heads. jim @ dynotech has a very interesting research article he did with engine guru kevin cameron on this topic. the link is below. if you don't already belong to dynotech - join. it's the best $20. you will spend on increasing your snowmobile knowledge & will save you thousands over the years on bougus & impractical engine mods.
http://www.dynotechresearch.com/blog/archives.asp?chosenMonth=2&chosenYear=2007#177
bob
http://www.dynotechresearch.com/blog/archives.asp?chosenMonth=2&chosenYear=2007#177
bob
JeepTherapy
New member
good read Bob, thanks for posting.
w8tn4snow
New member
JeepTherapy said:
I totally agree !
The folks at Bender spent a lot of time and and $ in research and design and if they thought for a second that their stuff would be more reliable with an aftermarket head they would have built one to go with it .
ExpertXViper
New member
w8tn4snow said:
The MAIN reasons behind running a A/M head is for increased cooling and the opition to switch out domes in less than 20min. if needed. They also look a hell alot better too, esp. the Megas all polished up. IMO if I was adding 25-30hp to a sled that was built for 120hp not 150hp Id do as much as possible to keep her cool(Which I did but like DAMAN said Id rather be riding than tuning). Is it ness. no but I recall MRVIPER saying the COOLER a 2 Stroke runs the more HP she makes, so in all your getting best of both worlds.
Has anyone tested an aftermarket head vs a modified bender head with the opticool gasket. I'm thinking i'll go with the bender mod rather than a different head. I think i will install an EGT just to be on the safe side. Although its probably not needed if the DCS is working as it should. I ride it pinned to the bar all day, and very often by myself a long way from home. So i really need to be sure this thing will be reliable.
Mac
Member
I hope you carry a satalight phone?
Last year i didn't even carry a spare belt. This year i'll have a spare. I alway's carry a cell phone, spare plugs and a tow rope. My machine is always gone through and checked after every ride. If there is even just a little play in a bushing or whatever, it gets replaced before the next ride. I'v never blown up or been stranded before. Now that i put the pipes on i'm a little concerned about reliability though. I'v heard here somewhere that a piped viper can go 3-5000 miles without a problem. Thats what i'm after. I also whant to beet up on the Polaris's around here too. Maybe thats asking too much. If its possible i know someone here must know what works.
ExpertXViper
New member
justaviper said:
Just cause you have the same model sled as someone doesnt mean its gunna run the same and beable to be set up exactly the same. EGTs WILL NOT HELP YOU from burning down, trust me thats been pounded into my brain by many known motor gurus of the site. Its a window for performance, thats all. ITS NOT A JETTING TOOL
P.S. Never say never esp. when your talking about a SLP, Bender, CPR PIPED Viper. Thats another reason Im goin back to STOCK, you loose reliabilty in most cases when piped and major loss in MPG. But its your piggy bank not mine so have at it. If you want a fast TRIPLE/TRIPLE buy a 00-up SRX along with a new skid and ohlins for up front. Itll save ya time, $$$$, and aggrevation.
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I just figured an EGT would tell me when to back off before melt down. I'm not conserned with fuel mileage. All the money i spend on fuel gets written off through my company. No offence, but i really cant stand blue or the look of the SRX. I love my viper and don't want to get a new 4 stroke. At least not for a few more years. I know that a piped viper is not as reliable as stock, but i love the sound and the power. Someone must have a reliable set up? 
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JeepTherapy
New member
justaviper, I am with you. I think the head mod with the opticool gasket is a good way to set up the viper. My understanding is the head mod is good, the after market head better. I did find the article that spoke to the "bathtub" effect to be very interesting. Sounds like Bender has already answered the question about cooling. I think the EGTs tell you a lot about your motor. I have to agree that you need to read plugs and wash to get baseline jetting. But once you get baseline established then you can use your EGTs. When I was running a tuner car the hot setup was EGTs and air fuel gauge to tune the amount of boost the car could take.
I want to hang on to my Viper. I like the black Viper, like the body style. I like the sound of the pipes, I like to tinker. I can and do ride from my back door. No desire to move into a 4 stroke right now.
The DCS should be huge in adding to the reliability if you can keep it functioning properly with the pipes. I have heard that it gets a little sensitive with pipes. If the DCS is being activated with the right jetting with pipes I would have to think that those without the DCS are just a moment away from issue. I think the DCS should take care of you but I wouldn't want to bet my motor on that. I don't think there are a lot of people on here that have pipped the DCS equipped Vipers. I think in 2004 a lot of the people that would be modding the Vipers moved on to the RX1 platform.
I think you are right too that the EGT will tell you when to get off the throttle. If it starts to climb it is time to get out of it. But I would also think that before you see that climb in EGT if the heat issue is from detonation DCS would have shut it down already.
As for fuel consumption my viper gets 9 to 10 mpg as it sits bone stock. So I guess I feel it can't get too much worse so I don't have much to loose.... I think part of the fuel consumption with pipes is getting in the throttle more. To me it is all about smiles per gallon anyway...
ROCK ON!
I want to hang on to my Viper. I like the black Viper, like the body style. I like the sound of the pipes, I like to tinker. I can and do ride from my back door. No desire to move into a 4 stroke right now.
The DCS should be huge in adding to the reliability if you can keep it functioning properly with the pipes. I have heard that it gets a little sensitive with pipes. If the DCS is being activated with the right jetting with pipes I would have to think that those without the DCS are just a moment away from issue. I think the DCS should take care of you but I wouldn't want to bet my motor on that. I don't think there are a lot of people on here that have pipped the DCS equipped Vipers. I think in 2004 a lot of the people that would be modding the Vipers moved on to the RX1 platform.
I think you are right too that the EGT will tell you when to get off the throttle. If it starts to climb it is time to get out of it. But I would also think that before you see that climb in EGT if the heat issue is from detonation DCS would have shut it down already.
As for fuel consumption my viper gets 9 to 10 mpg as it sits bone stock. So I guess I feel it can't get too much worse so I don't have much to loose.... I think part of the fuel consumption with pipes is getting in the throttle more. To me it is all about smiles per gallon anyway...
ROCK ON!
ExpertXViper
New member
You wont be smiling if you pump a bunch of skunk premium into your finky motor, but thats if you even make it to the next gas station getting 7-8mpg. If I was to ever run trip pipes on a Viper again(Wont ever happen) I'd convert my top end and pipes to SRX parts. Most reliable and best MPG youll get out of a triple piped Viper.
Im curious though do you guys plan on checking your squish clearence before sending your heads to Bender????
Im curious though do you guys plan on checking your squish clearence before sending your heads to Bender????
I'm a little curious why i should be checking squish clearance before i send the head to bender. I would think bender knows what it is, and machines accordingly. Do you think an aftermarket head would be a better choice? SRX parts are not DCS compatable. I would like to keep the DCS. Also the viper pipes are not designed to be used with SRX CDI and head. They were built for the viper with a higher rpm power band. I believe with the right jetting and compression the pipes will work great together with the DCS. Just have to find the sweet spot. I couldn't care less about fuel mileage. I'm looking for the fun factor. My drag car would use 1/2 a gallon a pass. At $12.00 a gallon it was worth every penny.
PS, You really seem to be against pipes. Is it only because of fuel mileage, or is it a reliability issue?
PS, You really seem to be against pipes. Is it only because of fuel mileage, or is it a reliability issue?
JeepTherapy
New member
It was my understanding that the best safety measure is using the SRX CDI. I am not sure I have the ability to properly wire a DCS equipped SRX CDI to my Viper.
I think the whole idea of the DCS is to protect against that detonation caused by bad gas. I suppose if not I will then learn how to rebuild my motor. I just don't look at that as a big issue. Many people have posted how well their piped vipers have run. Those are people without the advantage of the DCS. Bender has done the testing to ensure the reliability of the head mod, opticool gasket, and their pipes. Not only on the dyno but out on the trail.
As far as MPG I still feel a huge part of that is how you ride. Like I posted earlier, my Viper gets between 9 and 10 MPG stock. My dealer swears it gets 15 and it is so low because of how I ride it. I am sure piped I will still ride it hard, if I loose some MPG such is life. Gotta pay to play.
As far as checking squish before sending my head to Bender I guess I don't see what that gains me. They mill the squish and change it. I guess I thought it made more sense to check squish after the head is milled and adjust with gasket thickness if needed? Again, I would hope that bender has tested this enough to get it right.
I have considered the after market head. I would only do an after market head if it had the DCS provision. As for welding a bung on a non DCS after market head I don't see that as a great idea. I am not confident in my ability to appropriately test the DCS system to ensure that my placement works properly to detect detonation. That being the case I think I would be just as well off to just leave it off. It is my understanding that just adding anti seize tape can affect the DCS operation.
I have also considered SRX heads. I think the SRX head with DCS would be a great choice. Availability of the SRX heads with DCS isn't all that great. Cost gets to be more than I would spend.
So taking all of that into consideration I still feel that the Bender modded head and opticool gasket combo with their pipes is my best bet. I don't plan to jet on the bleeding edge. Our temperatures stay pretty consistent here.
We do have some very cold days now and again, but those would be the days I would think the EGT gauge would be helpful. I would think the EGTs would climb enough to be an indicator that something is amiss. If that is the case I don't have a problem parking the Viper and moving on to the VMax for the day.
A big part of it for me is the build. I just want to say I did it. If it takes me two or three tries to get it right, so be it. All my two stroke knowledge is from reading on the internet and my experience with RC two stroke motors. My next step is to jump in and do it. I am sure it can't be any harder than squeaking 350HP out of a 2 liter 4 cylinder. Done that, liked it, killed it. So be it.
I think the whole idea of the DCS is to protect against that detonation caused by bad gas. I suppose if not I will then learn how to rebuild my motor. I just don't look at that as a big issue. Many people have posted how well their piped vipers have run. Those are people without the advantage of the DCS. Bender has done the testing to ensure the reliability of the head mod, opticool gasket, and their pipes. Not only on the dyno but out on the trail.
As far as MPG I still feel a huge part of that is how you ride. Like I posted earlier, my Viper gets between 9 and 10 MPG stock. My dealer swears it gets 15 and it is so low because of how I ride it. I am sure piped I will still ride it hard, if I loose some MPG such is life. Gotta pay to play.
As far as checking squish before sending my head to Bender I guess I don't see what that gains me. They mill the squish and change it. I guess I thought it made more sense to check squish after the head is milled and adjust with gasket thickness if needed? Again, I would hope that bender has tested this enough to get it right.
I have considered the after market head. I would only do an after market head if it had the DCS provision. As for welding a bung on a non DCS after market head I don't see that as a great idea. I am not confident in my ability to appropriately test the DCS system to ensure that my placement works properly to detect detonation. That being the case I think I would be just as well off to just leave it off. It is my understanding that just adding anti seize tape can affect the DCS operation.
I have also considered SRX heads. I think the SRX head with DCS would be a great choice. Availability of the SRX heads with DCS isn't all that great. Cost gets to be more than I would spend.
So taking all of that into consideration I still feel that the Bender modded head and opticool gasket combo with their pipes is my best bet. I don't plan to jet on the bleeding edge. Our temperatures stay pretty consistent here.
We do have some very cold days now and again, but those would be the days I would think the EGT gauge would be helpful. I would think the EGTs would climb enough to be an indicator that something is amiss. If that is the case I don't have a problem parking the Viper and moving on to the VMax for the day.
A big part of it for me is the build. I just want to say I did it. If it takes me two or three tries to get it right, so be it. All my two stroke knowledge is from reading on the internet and my experience with RC two stroke motors. My next step is to jump in and do it. I am sure it can't be any harder than squeaking 350HP out of a 2 liter 4 cylinder. Done that, liked it, killed it. So be it.