Brighter Head Lamp for Venture

[PZ 1]

jwiedmayer:
I went back through some of your posts and links. Wow!
You have made this your mission in life! I applaud your perseverance!

Yes, I guess I understand your diagram and think it should work - but don't take my word for it. The difference on my kit is that there is a seperate switching wire and a relay in the ballast box. The problem is that the relay will not operate on AC so I would need to have another relay activated by the AC light circuit to send DC to the integral relay.

From what I can deduce, one charging coil wire is grounded. I take it that a "floating" system means it is isolated and not connected to a frame ground -or both wires running to a reg/rec.
The electric start Yamaha's have both the AC and DC circuits grouded through the frame and the rectifier is also grounded. That may be because the single diode system will work that way and a diode trio will not. I am not going to attempt to figure that out. My head is starting to hurt already.

I think you would want to insulate the entire body of the rectifier if you choose to go with the grounded system because touching it with a wrench or something and grounding it while working on something would blow it. And you would have to leave the original reg/rec in place to regulate the AC circuit. If it will work that way, that could be the next roadblock.

The simplest way seems to be the way you want to do it and what I like is that without the draw of the headlight on the light circuit, it would give me lots of extra power to do things with.
The problem may be the aforementioned possibility of overheating and burning out the battery charging coil(s) because of the extra amps flowing through.
How about running both circuits together? Disconnect both circuits ground wires on the stator and connect them together. Connect both external wires from the stator to the full wave rectifier. The coils would not be overloaded. No insulation needed. Only one regulator needed. No smoothing diode. No capacitor. A relay to turn off the lights would still be needed. But the original tach would not work. It could be driven by the AC before the reg/rec, but the number of poles would be wrong and I believe cause an incorrect reading. Maybe not- try it. A different type of tach could probably be used.

I am going to have to take a break on this. As I see it I have three choices.
1. Give up on HID and use one of the new, high power incandescents.
2. Let you tear your hair out and figure it out and then just do it the way you did.
3. Just buy a damn Ski-Doo with DC.

 

[jwiedmayer]

My latest circuit did not work and the battery and new regulator are isolated fromt the chassis.



BTW I'm already folically challenged! My opinion give up on HID! But I'm too stubborn and I'm already pot invested.



The newer yami the ones with dual headlights are dc but you would not need brighter lights with them either. Anyways if you have any of the middle of the night brain storms by all means post them. My posts might seem cantankerous but I'm actually excited to have more people help on the idea.

jwiedmayer:
I went back through some of your posts and links. Wow!
You have made this your mission in life! I applaud your perseverance!

Yes, I guess I understand your diagram and think it should work - but don't take my word for it. The difference on my kit is that there is a seperate switching wire and a relay in the ballast box. The problem is that the relay will not operate on AC so I would need to have another relay activated by the AC light circuit to send DC to the integral relay.

From what I can deduce, one charging coil wire is grounded. I take it that a "floating" system means it is isolated and not connected to a frame ground -or both wires running to a reg/rec.
The electric start Yamaha's have both the AC and DC circuits grouded through the frame and the rectifier is also grounded. That may be because the single diode system will work that way and a diode trio will not. I am not going to attempt to figure that out. My head is starting to hurt already.

I think you would want to insulate the entire body of the rectifier if you choose to go with the grounded system because touching it with a wrench or something and grounding it while working on something would blow it. And you would have to leave the original reg/rec in place to regulate the AC circuit. If it will work that way, that could be the next roadblock.

The simplest way seems to be the way you want to do it and what I like is that without the draw of the headlight on the light circuit, it would give me lots of extra power to do things with.
The problem may be the aforementioned possibility of overheating and burning out the battery charging coil(s) because of the extra amps flowing through.
How about running both circuits together? Disconnect both circuits ground wires on the stator and connect them together. Connect both external wires from the stator to the full wave rectifier. The coils would not be overloaded. No insulation needed. Only one regulator needed. No smoothing diode. No capacitor. A relay to turn off the lights would still be needed. But the original tach would not work. It could be driven by the AC before the reg/rec, but the number of poles would be wrong and I believe cause an incorrect reading. Maybe not- try it. A different type of tach could probably be used.

I am going to have to take a break on this. As I see it I have three choices.
1. Give up on HID and use one of the new, high power incandescents.
2. Let you tear your hair out and figure it out and then just do it the way you did.
3. Just buy a damn Ski-Doo with DC.

 

[tripplec]

I don't think the yamaha's stator have a floating ground. (I keep confusing my self. I think one end of the winding is attached to the stator and the other goes to the regulator.)

Anyways tell what you guys think is wrong with this layout.
http://www.totallyamaha.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27030

I did think about floating the ground but I did not want to be left with out the tach.

There is also a bunch of info here http://www.trailtech.net/instructions.html
I though my set up was similiar to the crf450 example

This is the HID working with just the bridge rectifier. I burnt the ballast up when I revved the engine!

This is why I insulated the regulator and battery from the chassis: http://trailtech.net/media/electrical/dc_conversions/ac-dc_key_concepts.pdf

NOTE: Item 4 in this PDF. There-in lies one of the problems also in one of the other threads. A 4-5mf cap is not going to do squat (nothing personal) they are used for noise (circuit filtering etc). You would need at least 2000MF cap rated at 32VDC or higher to get proper filtering. Being half wave there is a large gap in the output wave form. And a regulator is a MUST.

Personally I would try doing away with AC entirely since nothing really needs it and lights are all that are on it. Theoretically the output at the bulb could be measured and fed to an brigde rectifier. Measure to see that you have DC (measuring AC on a DC meter setting give you nothing more than a short blip, the alternating voltage cancels out any reading). Take the output of the bridge to a load which is expendable. E.G. sealed headlamp or such with a DC meter in parallel. If you hit 16V you will start to blow the bulbs (not without filtering the peak voltage is higher than you are reading on the meter) so be carefull. Through a large 2000mf cap in parallel or two they are not that large and very light.

But in the end you need to build a voltage regulator. This could also be used to charge the battery if you wanted it all on one circuit. Since you'd have power to spare. Depending on your output voltage you should put in a shunt in series with the charge to the battery 0.1 ohm or such in case the charge gets high or a separate VR for the battery. This approaches what is done on automobiles. - one output power source providing power and battery charging and electrical power to the load from the battery when the magneto is not generating enough power.

 

[jwiedmayer]

tripplec follow up

I could not live with out the tach. That is why I ditched the floating ground idea..

Do you have any idea what's wrong with the circuit I had drawn. I thought it was finally money. Maybe that my battery is junk and not the circuit.

Before I summarize it I'm going to do some more experimenting. I think you might be onto a good idea with the dcdc convertor. I was thinking of just using the timing relay to disconnect the battery from lighting circuit after the HID was warm. And let it stay connected to the stock charging circuit.

I did have this big ole cap on before and it seemed to work. This is when I had the brain fart about 12v ac rms not equally 12v dc thourgh the bridge.
http://www.totallyamaha.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18237http://www.totallyamaha.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18237
http://www.totallyamaha.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18236
BTW are you an EE or something?

NOTE: Item 4 in this PDF. There-in lies one of the problems also in one of the other threads. A 4-5mf cap is not going to do squat (nothing personal) they are used for noise (circuit filtering etc). You would need at least 2000MF cap rated at 32VDC or higher to get proper filtering. Being half wave there is a large gap in the output wave form. And a regulator is a MUST.

Personally I would try doing away with AC entirely since nothing really needs it and lights are all that are on it. Theoretically the output at the bulb could be measured and fed to an brigde rectifier. Measure to see that you have DC (measuring AC on a DC meter setting give you nothing more than a short blip, the alternating voltage cancels out any reading). Take the output of the bridge to a load which is expendable. E.G. sealed headlamp or such with a DC meter in parallel. If you hit 16V you will start to blow the bulbs (not without filtering the peak voltage is higher than you are reading on the meter) so be carefull. Through a large 2000mf cap in parallel or two they are not that large and very light.

But in the end you need to build a voltage regulator. This could also be used to charge the battery if you wanted it all on one circuit. Since you'd have power to spare. Depending on your output voltage you should put in a shunt in series with the charge to the battery 0.1 ohm or such in case the charge gets high or a separate VR for the battery. This approaches what is done on automobiles. - one output power source providing power and battery charging and electrical power to the load from the battery when the magneto is not generating enough power.

 

[tripplec]

You don't have regulator on the output of the charging circuit unless the Yammy regulator is in effect. (can't tell, trouble with block diagrams). DC implies flat rippleless output as with the a battery. If I understand the many feedbacks the output of the charging circuit is > 2amps DC, thus insufficient for the application.

As for Brain farts. Have you tried a spring loaded momentary toggle switch which you can apply batter power to the ballast and once fired up release it. Much like the idea used on desk lamp flouresent tube ballast. Once released you back online to the coil only and nothing to foget to turn off. God damm that was a hell-0f-a-fart....

 

[horkn]

ok, if any of you guys figure this out, I will copy what you did

otherwise, I will go with a better H4 drop in bulb.

We have all summer, spring, and fall

 

[jwiedmayer]

If this was easy everybody would do it.

Huh? "You don't have regulator on the output of the charging circuit unless the Yammy regulator is in effect" I have the regulator/rectifier hooked up to the lighting circuit. I was just using the charging coil to trigger the relay.

"Have you tried a spring loaded momentary toggle switch which you can apply batter power to the ballast and once fired up release it." This is basically the time delay relay that I had it timed off. I have never tried to power the HID with the charging circuit if that's what you are thinking.

You don't have regulator on the output of the charging circuit unless the Yammy regulator is in effect. (can't tell, trouble with block diagrams). DC implies flat rippleless output as with the a battery. If I understand the many feedbacks the output of the charging circuit is > 2amps DC, thus insufficient for the application.

As for Brain farts. Have you tried a spring loaded momentary toggle switch which you can apply batter power to the ballast and once fired up release it. Much like the idea used on desk lamp flouresent tube ballast. Once released you back online to the coil only and nothing to foget to turn off. God damm that was a hell-0f-a-fart....

 

[tripplec]

Huh? ... I was just using the charging coil to trigger the relay.

QUOTE]
Right I see that now after further inspection but it appears to be full time engaged as drawn supplying power through S2 to the HID.
Anyway, minor detail. What is the output of the "R" lead for the regulator? I believe this is the aftermaket regulator you list above. If it could hand a lot more power then the lighting circuit could and likely is used (your 2 -Y lead are inputs?) so you're driving it with the say 200 watt coil. Looking a some of the pics is see a big filter cap. GREAT!! Should all work then fine. The charging circuit drop off when shut down and the relay opens turning off the HID. But if you are only get have wave the regulator may be expecting more input (five -alive) never mind another brain fart. The battery will certainly have the starup current available and once fired the HID should drop its loud to a manageable level of 3 amps or so per bulb.

 

[PZ 1]

Good idea on the momentary switch Tripplec, but I would still forget to turn it on during the day. The headlight is not required during the day, but for safety purposes, I want to have it on. jw's timer would be idiot-proof.


Or.........
Those of us that have electric start could take power from the starter feed terminal on the starter relay to start the HID. That is if there would still be enough amps to ignite the HID when cranking the motor. I think there would be as long as the battery had a good charge.


jwiedmayer "I could not live with out the tach. That is why I ditched the floating ground idea.."

If you rectified the light circuit or combined both circuits, I think you could still operate the tach by connecting to each wire from the light circuit coil (there may be more than one coil) before the rectifier and running both wires to the tach. Operate the tach light with those wires also and there would be no issues with a ground.


In any case, a low or dead battery would mean no headlight. I always keep a helmet light in my map bag and have had occasion to use it when having headlight trouble. I put velcro on the bottom of the light and on top of my helmet. If I need the light, just pop it on and plug it in. The velcro on the helmet is long enough to move the light forward and then it makes an unbeatable trouble light.
The emergency uses are in addition to the standard use as an additional -aim it wherever you want it- running light. Great for informational trail signs or just gawking around, looking at deer, etc. It works well as an addition to a headlight with poor performance (wouldn't need an HID- haha) Very good to have.

 

[tripplec]

PZ: I don't see a timer in the circuilt the power to the relay coil keeps it engaged and must for the lights to work anyway as drawn anyway. HID without a battery is a tough act to follow because of:
- the start currrent which very high (would not work at idle)
- maintaining sufficient voltage even afterward with the regulated DC output would depend on the machine and installed magneto
- you could add a battery purely for this purpose in an non e-start sled

Just use and high performance bulb and not worry about it. On another note. All HID true installation utilize a projector base fixture to control and direct the light clipping it from going too high (< 3 ft for sure). You'd blind the poor sucker coming the otherway.

 

[PZ 1]

PZ: I don't see a timer in the circuilt the power to the relay coil keeps it engaged and must for the lights to work anyway as drawn anyway. HID without a battery is a tough act to follow because of:
- the start currrent which very high (would not work at idle)
- maintaining sufficient voltage even afterward with the regulated DC output would depend on the machine and installed magneto
- you could add a battery purely for this purpose in an non e-start sled.

jw had spoke of using a timer on the HID start circuit to which you replied to use a momentary switch. He is also planning on using a battery. Go back to the top of the page and reread the entire thing.

Just use and high performance bulb and not worry about it. On another note. All HID true installation utilize a projector base fixture to control and direct the light clipping it from going too high (< 3 ft for sure). You'd blind the poor sucker coming the otherway.

All things considered, a high performance incandescent bulb does seem like the way to go when using the stock lamp housing.
And there has been no worrying. This has been as much an exercise as anything. It has been interesting and enjoyable as from the aspect of a puzzle or "the thrill of the hunt", and it was necessary to go through it to see what it would take to add HID and then make a decision on what was best. It has been a long road for jwiedmayer, but I think he would agree with this.

When using the stock headlamp housing, the lighting performance of an HID will not be much, if any, better than a high performance bulb because of the way the HID becomes a floodlight. But I am going to search to see if there is an entire HID lamp assembly offered as an aftermarket item for ATV's and off-road bikes. If there is not such a thing available now, I think that there will be in the future. Or using one from a junked car would be a possibility, although they are expensive. Changing the lamp would not be something that would work well on our trailing arm sleds, but on my older Phazer and Venture (which I plan on using a Phazer headlight mount on) it would be fairly simple.

Then, with using a lamp made for it, the advantage of using a HID light, is the best light output available at a lower amp consumption than any other type of light. I can always use the extra power for other purposes.

 

[jwiedmayer]

follow up

I ditched the timing relay and cap when I went to using the aftermarket regulator/rectifier. S1 & S2 is the switch side of the relay. The charging coil just powered the coil in the relay. The output red of the regulator is 14.6 v dc. But I need to find the amerage.

 

[Timbaahb]

I was using the Siverstars in my Saab, til I had to replace them several times. The dims were failing within a week of each other. At first I thought that I had a problem with the charging system in the car. Then I checked the Sylvania website and found this info.
While these lights are brighter, they are of no use if they are burnt out. If you have a dual light you are ok because you have a backup. With the single light you're gambling in a curve with your life. Not to mention they are more than twice the price of a regular halogen.
Also, Are our lighting systems regulated well enough to keep the voltage within Sylvanias 110% parameter.




Silverstars Volts 12 Watts 55 Rated Life 150
Volts 12 Watts 60 Rated Life 50


For more information on SilverStar ® Halogens, click here SilverStar® Halogens
Caution : Operates under pressure and may shatter. Use appropriate screening techniques to protect people and surroundings. Do not operate in close proximity to persons, combustible materials, or substances affected by heat or drying. Do not operate over 110% rated voltage because such operation increases pressure and lamps' tendency to shatter. Ultraviolet output may cause skin and eye irritation with prolonged exposure. Protect bulb from abrasions and scratches. Do not insert lamps when power is on. Follow operating instructions.