xtc700jeff
Member
Havn't had any problems with mine .
mopar1rules
Active member
daman said:
daman, my buddy bought this v-max 4 w/the bender direct oil injection kit on it. he always had trouble w/plug fouling and loading up. he took his carbs off cause he thought the previous owner had them jetted pig rich for the psi quad pipes, but it was 1 size leaner on the pilots and about 1/2 turn leaner on the fuel screws too, from what the psi jet chart says. he then had me take a look at his sled, cause he wanted me to rejet it. i then seen he had the direct oil injection kit on it and i had heard some horror stories about it 1 month prior, at a local motorsports shop. i then told my buddy that the problem was his direct oil injection kit and so that night, we switched it back to the stock oiling setup, which is oil to the fuel pump, and haven't fouled a plug since, nor experienced plug fouling when starting it cold. its worked fine since. if anyone wants this kit, cause they really think its the cats arse, he'll sell it.....he'll even give ya a good deal on it too.
PZ 1
Member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2005
- Messages
- 987
daman said:
No it does not take forever.
Lubing the carb slides should also help with smooth, easy operation and help to prevent freeze up.
Reliability of oil supply? You'll have to explain that one. If it would be more reliable that way, than why would anybody want to change it? And why would it not be that way on the butterfly carb sleds?
daman
New member
the right oil supply to the varying motor rpms is more reliable is what i meant should have been more clear but didn't think i had to spell it out, when your on the flipper wfo oil is being pumped in @ a higher rate right now when the engine needs it VS going through the carbs then by the time that extra amount of oil/gas gets to the engine your back closer cruse rpm's,had a interesting conversation with two mechanics at my dealer back in '90,he showed me wright ups on direct inject and carb mix the pro's and cons of both. the reasons it's not like that on butterfly carb sleds is because the way the fuel is metered through the carb,vs. mikuni flat sides and yamaha wanted to try a different approach with the carb mix is what was explained to me. what's your idea take time and explaine please?PZ 1 said:
daman
New member
Ya know screw you @$$ nice and deep!!!!!! lets hear your explanation wizard.PZ 1 said:
ExpertXViper
New member
daman said:
WOW!!! It takes alot to touch a Daman nerve, and he diff hit it with a very low blow. Sorry but comparing Daman to Gary/Nosboy is like comparing a Vette to a Ford Feista not even in the same league of one another. Blowboy maybe good for some technical chemical info but beyond that Ill take help from Daman over blowboy any day of the week.
xtc700jeff
Member
I have been running mine three seasons with no trouble and no slide scoring, but ( to each his own)
journeyman
Active member
I ran the direct injection setups from Bender many years ago on my 1990 Hauck Exciter and also my old 1993 Exciter SX. I did have to jet down a bit on both. I never had any issues with it but I cannot honestly say that I felt I saw any appreciable increase in performance or reliability. My Dad also tried it on an Exciter and a couple Vmax 600's. He felt about the same as I did. Neither of us have ever tried it again being we didn't think we gained a thing. Why spend the money if what you got works good???
OK, lets try to keep this on the tech. side of things...I hope I get this question out properly. The oil pump varies its output with engine rpm through throttle position / amount of cable movement - correct??? Now does this mean we are trying to maintain an approx. 50:1 ratio throughout the RPM range OR at idle perhaps, a mixture of say 80:1 then varying to 40:1 at WOT?
daman
New member
thanks ExpertExpertXViper said:
.. thats what was explained to me by my dealer that day(spent 3 hours there)if wrong who knows and who cares i have no reason to come on here with BS,not my style. People need to calm down here lately and stop the bashing if you don't agree fine post your opinion and move on don't stir chit up.this site's better then that. 
daman
New member
when people/I say 40,50:1 etc that's overall average based on usage,yes pumps vary out put by design. but doing calculations with gas oil used younorthern srx said:
can get a "general" idea of what's going on.
clear as mud...lol
I believe I have a viper with less than 900 miles that died from lack of oil. Sled ran around for half an hour running slow then pinned for several miles down the road. Mag piston melted center piston scored left cylinder perfect. Does this sound like the belayed injection through the fuel pump failure? Really need to know before I put it back together.
Oh, jetted rich enough for plugs to be black. Amzoil interceptor oil.
Oh, jetted rich enough for plugs to be black. Amzoil interceptor oil.
opsled
Active member
stingray719 said:
Absolutly not. If so the damage should be equal across the board. I think this "belayed injection" idea (although arguable) has no merit in a Yamaha.
If it had merit I and many others (including Yamaha) would have seen it. A plausable theory but I've never seen it applied (truthfully) to reality.
I would think you have something else going on.
opsled
I've had this setup on my SRX for 8 yrs w/no problems. I did foul plugs initally, but when I synced the carbs that stopped. It ate plugs before the kit was installed as well. I also have it on an 90 Exciter that I've owned since new (with Wiseco's, ported, and twin piped) which still runs great!
The reason I used these kits was that at idle you are running at almost 80 or 90:1, then you go to full throttle on this lean mixture of oil in your float bowls. After you come down off the pipe you have your bowls full of 40:1 mixture, which isn't bad if you take off still warm, but if you go in for lunch or whatever, you warm up on a fat mixture.
Not trying to stir the pot, but that's my .02.
The reason I used these kits was that at idle you are running at almost 80 or 90:1, then you go to full throttle on this lean mixture of oil in your float bowls. After you come down off the pipe you have your bowls full of 40:1 mixture, which isn't bad if you take off still warm, but if you go in for lunch or whatever, you warm up on a fat mixture.
Not trying to stir the pot, but that's my .02.
opsled you are right. My Viper died from a known issue with Viper running lean at slow speeds. Wish I had known ahead of time
Touchy subjuct on here :P
I just wanted to know something, maybe I have been thinking wrong but....
On an SRX.
The fuel (Gasoline and air) is pumped to carburators then goes through the reed valve when vacuume opens it as the piston goes up. That fuel then goes into the crank case.
The oil is hanging out in the crank case where it is pumped by another pump hooked up to a cable that is running from the thumb flipper and there fore the rate of oil per any given throttle position is syncronized.
40:1 or 50 or 80 or what have you.
So the oil is mixing with gasoline/air in the crank case.
Right ?
So when you guys are talking about the older 90s yamahas mixing oil at the fuel pump you mean that the oil is squirting into the gasoline pump ? or is being squirted through a nozzel at the carburator or ???
I never had an older yamaha, first yam that I have had is the 2001 SRX currently riding.
I did have an old Polaris Indy 500 but it squirted oil into the crank case the same as the SRX. The indy, however, did not have case reed valve it was or is a blow through design. The fuji motors wre good but maybe not technologically advanced :P
Through reading the thread I'm a little confused is all.
I just wanted to know something, maybe I have been thinking wrong but....
On an SRX.
The fuel (Gasoline and air) is pumped to carburators then goes through the reed valve when vacuume opens it as the piston goes up. That fuel then goes into the crank case.
The oil is hanging out in the crank case where it is pumped by another pump hooked up to a cable that is running from the thumb flipper and there fore the rate of oil per any given throttle position is syncronized.
40:1 or 50 or 80 or what have you.
So the oil is mixing with gasoline/air in the crank case.
Right ?
So when you guys are talking about the older 90s yamahas mixing oil at the fuel pump you mean that the oil is squirting into the gasoline pump ? or is being squirted through a nozzel at the carburator or ???
I never had an older yamaha, first yam that I have had is the 2001 SRX currently riding.
I did have an old Polaris Indy 500 but it squirted oil into the crank case the same as the SRX. The indy, however, did not have case reed valve it was or is a blow through design. The fuji motors wre good but maybe not technologically advanced :P
Through reading the thread I'm a little confused is all.
As for the original quesiton on the thread. I'd stick with stock, not cause I think its bad or worse but just cause the SRX seems to work pretty good in stock form, no burn downs or oiling problems as long as they are setup to stock setting and left alone.
Unless maybe you are planning to do some modifyer race stuff. But then you would want to cut out the oil injection all together, mix that R50 Klots or whatever right into the gasoline tank. The race oil that clogs the injector pumps but keeps the cylinder walls nice and slippy.
Unless maybe you are planning to do some modifyer race stuff. But then you would want to cut out the oil injection all together, mix that R50 Klots or whatever right into the gasoline tank. The race oil that clogs the injector pumps but keeps the cylinder walls nice and slippy.
opsled
Active member
All right. To elaborate on my thoughts.
I think this "belayed" or "delayed" oil injection theory is a Gremlin that doesn't exsist. A creation conjured by people looking to sell parts or by those who just don't see the whole picture.
I've heard the arguments on it and understand the perspective of those who argue them but their rationalization is based on a partial story and one that is unproven.
They argue that the oil/fuel ratio in the carb on this type of injection system changes with rpm and throttle position.
For the argument to be valid it would have to be proved with tests of fuel/oil ratios in the bowl under these different conditions that the ratio changes enough to support their argument. As far as I know this has never been done but is only assumed to be true.
It is assumed to be true because the oil pump delivers more oil at higher rpm and WOT than it does at lower rpm and closed throttle.
The thing is that this is how it MUST!! work to deliver a CONSTANT oil/fuel ratio in the carbs at ALL!! times. People misconcieve this change in oil delivery as a change in ratio. It isn't. It is nothing more than one flow rate having to change to keep up with another.
When you premix fuel in a sled without oil injection the mixture is constant no matter how fast you use it as it has allready been mixed. NO change is nessessary.
In an oil injection system it hasn't been mixed untill it is being used. Different rates of consumtion dictates that both the fuel AND oil systems have the ability to change to keep up with consumption. Change IS nessessary.
Throttle position dictates the rate that fuel is being used. Open throttle fast consumtion of fuel, closed throttle slow consumtion of fuel. In order to keep a constant ratio of fuel/oil mix you need an oil injection system that can match the variability of the fuel consumtion rate. That is why an oil injection system delivers less oil at low rpm/throttle position and more at higher rpm/throttle position.
These oil injection systems do this to keep up with the amount of fuel being used. Not to change the ratio of fuel/oil.
It only stands to reason if you think about it.
Here's what Lucky7 said: (not pickin on ya Lucky just tryin to explain my POV)
"The reason I used these kits was that at idle you are running at almost 80 or 90:1, then you go to full throttle on this lean mixture of oil in your float bowls. After you come down off the pipe you have your bowls full of 40:1 mixture, which isn't bad if you take off still warm, but if you go in for lunch or whatever, you warm up on a fat mixture."
40:1 to 90:1 ???????????
No way!!!!! If that is as consistant as Yamaha can get on an oil injectoin system they have no buisness building them. The ratio of fuel/oil in the carb can't vary that much. If it did there would be engines coming apart all over the place. That hasn't and isn't happening. Yamaha's R&D/engineering is much better than what this ghost problems suggests.
opsled
PS, This is my .02 and as my signature says, I am more than willing to change my perspective if someone can prove my .02 is worthless.
I think this "belayed" or "delayed" oil injection theory is a Gremlin that doesn't exsist. A creation conjured by people looking to sell parts or by those who just don't see the whole picture.
I've heard the arguments on it and understand the perspective of those who argue them but their rationalization is based on a partial story and one that is unproven.
They argue that the oil/fuel ratio in the carb on this type of injection system changes with rpm and throttle position.
For the argument to be valid it would have to be proved with tests of fuel/oil ratios in the bowl under these different conditions that the ratio changes enough to support their argument. As far as I know this has never been done but is only assumed to be true.
It is assumed to be true because the oil pump delivers more oil at higher rpm and WOT than it does at lower rpm and closed throttle.
The thing is that this is how it MUST!! work to deliver a CONSTANT oil/fuel ratio in the carbs at ALL!! times. People misconcieve this change in oil delivery as a change in ratio. It isn't. It is nothing more than one flow rate having to change to keep up with another.
When you premix fuel in a sled without oil injection the mixture is constant no matter how fast you use it as it has allready been mixed. NO change is nessessary.
In an oil injection system it hasn't been mixed untill it is being used. Different rates of consumtion dictates that both the fuel AND oil systems have the ability to change to keep up with consumption. Change IS nessessary.
Throttle position dictates the rate that fuel is being used. Open throttle fast consumtion of fuel, closed throttle slow consumtion of fuel. In order to keep a constant ratio of fuel/oil mix you need an oil injection system that can match the variability of the fuel consumtion rate. That is why an oil injection system delivers less oil at low rpm/throttle position and more at higher rpm/throttle position.
These oil injection systems do this to keep up with the amount of fuel being used. Not to change the ratio of fuel/oil.
It only stands to reason if you think about it.
Here's what Lucky7 said: (not pickin on ya Lucky just tryin to explain my POV)
"The reason I used these kits was that at idle you are running at almost 80 or 90:1, then you go to full throttle on this lean mixture of oil in your float bowls. After you come down off the pipe you have your bowls full of 40:1 mixture, which isn't bad if you take off still warm, but if you go in for lunch or whatever, you warm up on a fat mixture."
40:1 to 90:1 ???????????
No way!!!!! If that is as consistant as Yamaha can get on an oil injectoin system they have no buisness building them. The ratio of fuel/oil in the carb can't vary that much. If it did there would be engines coming apart all over the place. That hasn't and isn't happening. Yamaha's R&D/engineering is much better than what this ghost problems suggests.
opsled
PS, This is my .02 and as my signature says, I am more than willing to change my perspective if someone can prove my .02 is worthless.
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no1chevyboy
New member
ok i have proved this for myself, if you take oil out of the gas you will run rich on fuel in combustion chamber and will need to rejet and adjust all circuits in the carb, (heres what happened to me) i was always running my sled with the oil pump set to the rich side, (the thickness of the line over) well last season i decided to set the oil pump to factory spec,(they always rich on the safe side).well it was runing ok earlier that day, did the adjustment to the oil and kept runing, then noticed if i was leading and could set the pace it was ok but if i had to follow it was hell,just seemed slugish unless i was in the higher rpms. started just doing plug checks again and dam, i went from wet brown to wet black brown, we were runing a loop so as soon as i got back, i pulled the rack and rejetted leaner moved needles leaner and damn right back to what it was before actually alittle better response wise and mileage and have been runing that way ever since, and its been two seasons now. now for the ratio part (opsled) i sure your assuming wrong the on ratio, the pump is variable based on rpm (pump speed) and throttle pos. (valve pos) the whole idea behind the pump is to feed oil to match demand, the old pre mix way you set the ratio and it was the same through out the range so your lower rpms are being drown with oil you only need oil below the combustion chamber, anything that goes into the combustion chamber is robbing performance(loading up fouling plugs). now with the pump you get lets say 100:1 at idle and 50:1 at wot and other ratios in between and an increase in perfomance. now the carb also meters the amount (in a sense)at idle the fuel mixture is being pulled through smaller openings, at wot its being pulled through bigger openings so the amount of mixture fed to the motor changes, its not like a sled is a miser on fuel so as soon as you go from idle to wot all you have to refill with the increased ratio is the bowl and lines from the fuel pump but it never goes without oil. if you go with the direct inject into the bottom the amount of oil needed is less. and fuel jetting is less. go to a boat show and see if there is an ETEC running(some places they can ) there. that motor is direct inject oil and fuel and with there oil can be set to run at 100:1 wot.( just an example) opsled if your belief was correct you would load up at low rpms from excess oil at a constant 50:1. im not slaming you just opening debate.
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