New sled or modify the Viper MTN?

K

kimoaj

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Hi guys!

Been a while since my last post on the forum but it`s starting to get colder outside so I guess it`s time to but the bike in the shed and start preparing the sled.

Now I ride a 2003 SX Viper Mountain, I very happy with the sleds handling/sound/reliability, but I often get stuck in the powder. A hill doesnt have to be all that steep for me to get stuck, I feel that my sled doesnt have the power to stay ontop of the snow, it sunks down and the powder bog doesnt help it.

So I`m trying to decide wether I should modify the Viper or buy a fourstroke?

I know triple pipes will increase HP numbers greatly but I`ve read so much about them pipes, some say you should change the heads to one with better cooling, change the CDI to an SRX CDI, or it can burn down. Also the powderbog will be worse. (that`s what the dealer (where I worked before) said).

A 151" kit , no slip and newer track style would make it better, but it will cost pretty much and I don`t know what I should do.


I`ve had a few Yamaha`s, 96V-Max 600XT, 2003 RX-1 ER, 2004 RX-1 Warrior, 1999 SRX 700 (141").

Back in the day when I hadnt developed my riding skills that much, the RX-1 ER was a blast to ride. But when I went from the SRX to the Warrior I was really disappointed cause it the SRX felt much easier to handle and the laidback-cruiser like riding position on the warrior didnt suit our mountain riding.

Oh yes I know it`s my mistake, buying a trail sled and thinking it will be a blast up in the mountains, but my question is: Will the new Apex Mountain (lets say a 2007) be a very different experience from the Warrior?

I know that the more narrow ski stance will make it easier to boondock/carve/side hill with and the higher handlebar will make it feel better.
But just how different is it from the first RX-1`s?

I need some advice on this... .
A Phazer MTX will have to little power and the Nytro will be too expensive I think.. .

And I also wonder if I will regret selling the bike when the summer comes. It`s a 2003 Kawasaki Z1000 with a few mods. I love it but at this time I feel that I`m not old enough to own such a bike. Everytime when I come home from a ride I regret on something I did, a pass, a highspeed run or just the general speeding all the time.

As some of you remember I have a friend with a Vector Mountain, he got his bike license this summer. He and I went and picked up an R1 2000 one week later. 2 weeks later he lost his license for a year and has to spend 21days in prison. So.. .



It would be nice if someone could share their thoughts on this.. I really do need some advice from someone who is or has been in the same chair as I am :-)


Thanks-
Joakim
 
The way i see it joakim is your a boondocker (meaning you go out in the back mountains and ride the wild side) A new nytro mountain would be the ideal sled for you if you wanted to spend large to do so.

Most guys around here buy a 4 stroke for long distance cruising and peice of mind that it will go for years with out haveing to rebuild it to get there money back in doing so.Its a little steep for a 16 grand sled that we will be lucky to get 3 mounths rideing out of but if the money is there it shure is nice to upgrade.

If i was you i would install a heelclicker kit in the old viper and look around for the track you want.Maybie pipes are the way to go for the srx like horsepower you want.There is plenty of guys on here with this setup on there viper and the only gripe is poor gas mileage.
 
Have yet to ride my 07 Apex Mountain, but compared to an RX-1 I think theyd ride better with the rider forward and what not. I'm coming off an 05 Viper Mountain so it will be interesting to see how much different the Apex is. Watch around and you can pick up an 07 Apex Mtn with low miles from 5000-6000.
 
This is a really, really close call. I'm nostalgic, so I'd mod your Mnt Viper for now, and then eventually plan to get a 4 stroke Mnt Sled.

Triple pipes and either a head mod or an aftermarket head is not that much $. Then either get rail extensions to 151" or just keep it 144", but either way if your track is in bad shape then replace it. But Mnt Vipers came with Camo Challenger track with 2" lugs, which is a really good track. I doubt that's your problem unless your missing lots of paddles, etc.

And I don't know what skis you have on there, but my '03 Mnt Viper came with the same skinny skis as on the regular Viper. You replace those also and you will notice a world of difference.

I like my Mnt Viper a lot for off trail. It's a nice sled that won't leave ya stranded. It performs well too. It's also a lot lighter and easier to throw around than the 4 strokes.

Mike
 
Hi guys!

Thanks alot for the replies, I really appreciate them.

bluewho: Yes I guess I maybe can call myself a boondocker, (not to brag or something lol). Money is an issue, I have to let go of something to buy a new sled, in this case the bike. I wount sell the Viper cause I like it so much. Snowmobiling is so important for me so I need to know that I have a sled that I`m happy with, so keeping the Viper makes me feel "safe" even if I buy another sled that I´m not happy with. Can heelclicker weights make great difference?

Sledsquatch: Hmm I`ve thought about it but I think a stock Phazer mountain will be to little for me. It`s like 40hp less then I have now and a 3cm narrower track.

SXlover: Gees I`m really excited to hear what you think about the Apex Mountain, this will be really interesting. I`ve ridden my friends Vector MTN several times, I like it and I`m sure I would like it even more if I got to ride it for a full day or so, but my when I go from the Vector MTN to my Viper I blip that throttle and think "oh this feels so much more nimble" . I also got somewhat tired in my arms after riding the Vector. But it`s all about getting used to to the sled.

Mntvipermn: I basically totally agree with you, I`m also very nostalgic.
If I were to modify Viper I would do the following:

-rebuild the engine with new crank seals and pistons, rebuild the waterpump
-fit triple pipes
-fit a new head with better cooling
-either MTN performance or hartman.inc 151" tunnel and skid (should I go 156"?)
-new track ofcourse
-new skis
-lightweight trailingarms
-adjustable primary weights
-no slip drivers

This will be atleast 3000$

(yes, everything is PRICY in Norway)

Will I need a cold air kit ? Is there a known fix for the powder bog?

My dealer said that when they fitted triple pipes on their short ER Viper, the powderbog was really bad but they partially solved it by cutting/shortening the pipes so that they didnt hit the snow. I don`t know if this is good information?

My biggest fear is that I will put alot of money into the viper and end up with a hard to jet- afraid of burn down- powder bogging -less reliable Viper?


I have so many thoughts around the buying-new-sled subject.

Like, when I ride my Viper I know that in long steep hills, it`s the sled that is the limit, not me.

If I where to get a, let`s say a turbo Apex I will always know that I´m the limit and I can picture myself standing at the bottom of a hill where some crazy guys are playing and they start to ask me "hey, why arent you at the top, with that turbo sled?" . Like, a comment like that is enough to ruin my day.

On the other hand it`s kind of frustrating when all the guys on the M7/M8`s and even my friend on the 121" MXZ 800 climbs higher then me. Oh btw he also climbs higher then my friend Vector MTN.

I might have a childish attitude but I guess many of you out there feel somewhat the same, it is cool to be the first who reaches the top of a hill when other people are having issues getting there. Or am I wrong?



If I make the mods to the Viper will it make a great difference to its performance?


Oh btw I have stock skis (narrow ones) but I have some wider ski-plastic on them.


Hmm oh gees this is so hard.. .
For the moment I´m working on building a sled trailer so that I can tow my sled to Sweden to go riding there. I´ve been there a few times and its nice to see some new terrain sometimes. So I havent started preparing the Viper yet. But the other day I got a new used (mint) seat, so it`s a good beginning. I`ve always like the look of the Vipers ***, gees.


Hmm feel free to post some more thoughts!:)


Joakim
 
i would reccomend the clutching 1st as that makes a huge difference in how a sled performs/pulls. does it still have the ehh powder deflector installed? that would help with the bogging if it is mia. how is the skid set up? too much front pressure will cause it to trench and get stuck more easily. also a set of saddlelessss mountain skis are a huge improvement and are lighter as well.

just a few cheaper ideas to try 1st before investing in pipes. odds are you could used the new adjustable weights with the pipes as well.
 
kimoaj said:
Can heelclicker weights make great difference?



If I were to modify Viper I would do the following:

-rebuild the engine with new crank seals and pistons, rebuild the waterpump
-fit triple pipes
-fit a new head with better cooling
-either MTN performance or hartman.inc 151" tunnel and skid (should I go 156"?)
-new track ofcourse
-new skis
-lightweight trailingarms
-adjustable primary weights
-no slip drivers

This will be atleast 3000$

(yes, everything is PRICY in Norway)


My biggest fear is that I will put alot of money into the viper and end up with a hard to jet- afraid of burn down- powder bogging -less reliable Viper?


Like, when I ride my Viper I know that in long steep hills, it`s the sled that is the limit, not me.


I might have a childish attitude but I guess many of you out there feel somewhat the same, it is cool to be the first who reaches the top of a hill when other people are having issues getting there. Or am I wrong?


If I make the mods to the Viper will it make a great difference to its performance?


Oh btw I have stock skis (narrow ones) but I have some wider ski-plastic on them.



Joakim
Click to expand...

Joakim:

The decision you are in the process of making is a big one, I agree. It's very costly and you will have to live with it a long time. But on the plus side, I think either way you will actually be quite happy. After all, either way (Apex Mnt or Modded Mnt Viper) you will have a sled that performs probably way better than your Mnt Viper in its current form.....


With all of the mods you have thought of for the Mnt Viper, you do all of those to your sled and it will perform very, very well I bet. Another guy on here named A K Mtn Viper (You should pm this guy, actually) from Colorado has done most or all of those same mods to his '03 Mnt Viper as I recall, and he says he can run with any other sleds in the Mountains except 162" tracks or longer. I think that is quite impressive. I have modded mine extensively, but I have not extended her (yet), but who knows what the future will hold.

In terms of jetting, include a Holtzmann Atacc carberator compensator with your mods. You just jet for the fattest jetting you will ever conceiveably need (How cold does it get there? general altitude you ride at?) and the Ataac automatically adjusts (leans) out your jetting. It also makes triple pipes a snap, especially if you change elevation/ temps a lot during a day, which I do a lot!

about burn downs/engine issues............ Well we all run the risk of these with 2 strokes don't we?????? I don't think triple pipes add that much of a greater risk of decreased reliability if they are properly installed. The head mod/ high flow head gaskets/ aftermarket head -- I've heard you should do one of these to help out from a risk of engine burn down because more coolant will be allowed to flow through.

It sounds like for your sled a good set of aftermarket skis may really, really help. Those stock skis could be hurting your powder performance.

In terms of track, my experience is the stock Camo Challenger track is really, really good. Is yours badly damaged or missing lugs? Others may have different opinions, but I know Hartman recommends that track over most others, so IMO don't sell that track too short.

About clutching (I'm no clutching guru), if you added those 8 tooth extro drivers you said, per Hartman your gearing will actually drop a little lower. On the Mnt Viper it's already pretty low. That's good for hills. If you want faster backshift for climbing you could consider a roller secondary clutch. That might help you. The prior owner of my sled took it to the mountains quite often and he told me he had added a more shallow helix aftermarket for quicker backshifting on mine (as an alternative to roller secondary) and Heel Clickers on the primary for more quickness when he pinned the throttle. Clutching experts like Turk maybe can chime in here to correct my clutching mistakes here if I have misspoke. I have never messed with his set up as I like it still.

Whether to replace your skid or extend it I'm not sure about those. A K Mtn Viper could tell you about his extensions. If you completely replace the skid then the sky is the limit.

Good luck and please let me know what your thoughts are.

Mike
 
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BTW Joakim: Some of your old riding posts w/pics were just fantastic! Keep up the good work and please keep sharing some of your amazing riding adventures with us! You are like the Yellowknife of the 2 stroke world......



Mike

;)! ;)! ;)! ;)! :letitsnow
 
Put some simmons skis on there and you'll be amazed in the difference they make in flotation and control.Thats what I did on my sx-r which has a 136" track and it made it float great and corner great on trail also.
 
What Maim said!! ;)!

But first, I'd make REAL SURE your jetting is right, then clutch it.

My wife rides an '07 Vector Mtn (151) and I prefer my '05 Viper Mtn (144). My Viper is much lighter and so much more nimble that I just can't bring myself to go with a 4-stroke....yet. I have the MPI front A-arms, trailing arms, spindles, Simmons ski's, Boss seat, Bender exhaust, etc. and I can go anywhere the Vector goes and even further if the terrain gets tight. We're boondockers, so the real key is to get the front end lightened up, tune the engine and clutch, then dial in the suspension (especially the rear skid and transfer). We mostly ride above 9,000ft elevation and I run out of track (144) long before I run out of power!

In short, DIAL IN THE VIPER! :WayCool:

And on another note, we had a new '07 Phazer GT. Unless you like freezing your a$$ off all the time and like digging it out in anything more than hardpack, don't waste your time or money! In my book, the new Phazers (in any variety) are just low-land ditch bangers for kids. A good friend, and Yami mechanic, had the Mtn and he dumped it after a couple of months, just as we did with our GT... #$%&*
 
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Healclicker weights work awsome in single pipe vipers. I have seen it with a budy i ride with.The srx i lost top speed with them but had all kinds of bottom and mid range.The kind of stuff you need for boondocking.

And as said above you need lots of transfer to keep the skis out of the snow and weight on the track to get good highmarks.
 
As for the powder bog:
Make sure you still have the "protector, muffler" on your sled.
http://216.37.204.206/wps/Yamaha_OEM/YamahaSnow.asp?Type=13&A=295&B=17
It's # 80.
If you don't have it or it is bent to the extent that it doesn't do much, you will have issues.

Also, a heelclicker clutch kit will make a world of difference. The stock clutching on the MM seemed quite foolish to what I have now. Just remember to get a torque limiter while you are at it.


kimoaj said:
Hi guys!

Been a while since my last post on the forum but it`s starting to get colder outside so I guess it`s time to but the bike in the shed and start preparing the sled.

Now I ride a 2003 SX Viper Mountain, I very happy with the sleds handling/sound/reliability, but I often get stuck in the powder. A hill doesnt have to be all that steep for me to get stuck, I feel that my sled doesnt have the power to stay ontop of the snow, it sunks down and the powder bog doesnt help it.

So I`m trying to decide wether I should modify the Viper or buy a fourstroke?

I know triple pipes will increase HP numbers greatly but I`ve read so much about them pipes, some say you should change the heads to one with better cooling, change the CDI to an SRX CDI, or it can burn down. Also the powderbog will be worse. (that`s what the dealer (where I worked before) said).

A 151" kit , no slip and newer track style would make it better, but it will cost pretty much and I don`t know what I should do.


I`ve had a few Yamaha`s, 96V-Max 600XT, 2003 RX-1 ER, 2004 RX-1 Warrior, 1999 SRX 700 (141").

Back in the day when I hadnt developed my riding skills that much, the RX-1 ER was a blast to ride. But when I went from the SRX to the Warrior I was really disappointed cause it the SRX felt much easier to handle and the laidback-cruiser like riding position on the warrior didnt suit our mountain riding.

Oh yes I know it`s my mistake, buying a trail sled and thinking it will be a blast up in the mountains, but my question is: Will the new Apex Mountain (lets say a 2007) be a very different experience from the Warrior?

I know that the more narrow ski stance will make it easier to boondock/carve/side hill with and the higher handlebar will make it feel better.
But just how different is it from the first RX-1`s?

I need some advice on this... .
A Phazer MTX will have to little power and the Nytro will be too expensive I think.. .

And I also wonder if I will regret selling the bike when the summer comes. It`s a 2003 Kawasaki Z1000 with a few mods. I love it but at this time I feel that I`m not old enough to own such a bike. Everytime when I come home from a ride I regret on something I did, a pass, a highspeed run or just the general speeding all the time.

As some of you remember I have a friend with a Vector Mountain, he got his bike license this summer. He and I went and picked up an R1 2000 one week later. 2 weeks later he lost his license for a year and has to spend 21days in prison. So.. .



It would be nice if someone could share their thoughts on this.. I really do need some advice from someone who is or has been in the same chair as I am :-)


Thanks-
Joakim
Click to expand...
 
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Hi guys!

Thanks so much for all the replies, I`m "totally blown away" by all the interest! :)

Maim: Yes I guess you are right about the adjustable weights, but does it take forever to get them dialed in the way you want? I`ve never messed with adjustable weights, or, I did install them when we mounted turbo`s at the dealer where I worked, but I never got do adjust them. And yes I do have the deflector.

As for ski`s, what ski`s should I choose?

Mntvipermn: Holy cow you sure arent afraid of writing!
I know that no matter what I do I will have a better performing sled, but as for the Apex I am afraid that the weight/heavy feel of the sled, will me less self-confident?

I`ve studied some clips on youtube and it seems like most people has both feet on their left runningboard in order to carve to the left and visa versa. That said I don`t know how skilled the riders were and I do remember that I spent some time learning how to carve without having both feet on one side. But now I can carve with just about any sled and keep my feet separated.
I know it`s no problem with the Apex but the question is how much effort you have to put into a carve to make it smooth. I might be a little too "detailed" now, sorry.


I will contact ak mtn viper and ask him if he thinks modifying the Viper is worth it.
The Holtzman atacc sounds really interesting!

I`ve figured out that sleds are very complicated machines. There are so many things that can change the way they perform and its not always easy to know where to start.
But from reading the replies here it seems like skis and clutching is a place to start.

However I have decided to sell my bike, its a hard decision but I think it`s right. I can buy a new one when I get older and I feel that if I dont sell the bike I might not get that old.. if you know what I mean?

I have always liked the Viper and I know that if I modify it I will be even happier with it cause it will be "mean" too, not only look good.

Today I started cleaning my bike thorougly so that I can shoot some nice pictures of it and put them in the add.

However selling a bike in autumn isnt easy, but I will try. If I don`t get it sold I will ask my girlfriend if she can borrow me the cash to do a real Viper project.
I want to do it properly if I do it, all or nothing.

On the other hand, if we were to get snow early this season, I will try to find an Apex mountain that I can test ride, and if I really like it I might buy one. (if I get the bike sold ofcourse).
Wow alot of back an forth here.. wellwell.

I`m glad you`ve liked my old picture posts mtnvipermn, I will try to make new ones this year:)

Swede: Are those simmons skis wide skis ment for powder riding?

Mtn track: Thanks for your opinion! I can see that you have the same impression as I do. But I must say that I find it funny that you ride the viper and your wife the vector:) But I bet that I would do the same, lol.
I feel somewhat bad saying it, but I do have some issues with the looks of the Phazer and the Nytro. Well I guess looks arent that important but if you ask me the older sleds looks better then the new ones. Except for the Apex ofcourse, which is the nicest sled out there. I am very brand loyal but I cant lie to myself.
But, I do know that they perform well cause of the weight distribution and they are good old Yamaha quality. Sorry for being old fashioned, I know the future brings strange designs but it doesnt have to mean that peoples opinions must change in order to like them.

I guess in a few years I will feel the opposite, the Viper will look strange and the Phazer/Nytro will look normal. But that`s just the way it is. If you look at some old pictures of yourself you will often think "gees did I really look like that??"

Oh I`m sorry for writing un-important stuff but the end of the story is that I have decided to sell the bike and if I get it sold and I get to testride an Apex MTN, and I like it, I will buy it.

If not, I will modify the Viper. And yes Norwegian and bluewho I will fit heelclicker weights:)

:-)
 
The biggest mod you can do is get rid of that horriable approcach angle on your proaction skid for climbing that's why all your buddies sleds are climbing higher then you. put a relocation kit in or find a cat skid.
 
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kimoaj said:
SXlover: Gees I`m really excited to hear what you think about the Apex Mountain, this will be really interesting. I`ve ridden my friends Vector MTN several times, I like it and I`m sure I would like it even more if I got to ride it for a full day or so, but my when I go from the Vector MTN to my Viper I blip that throttle and think "oh this feels so much more nimble" . I also got somewhat tired in my arms after riding the Vector. But it`s all about getting used to to the sled.

Joakim
Click to expand...

I've rode my uncles Vector MTN(05) also and you can tell the extra weight is there in front. But the thing sure seemed like it would go through more snow than our Viper MTN's(05) will. It was just the way it seemed due to the longer track. I've read lots of guys say the best thing for a Viper MTN is to go 151" or longer. This winter I will be running our one Viper MTN with a set of Speedwerx triples, which will put that and my Apex MTN(07) within about 10hp of each other I'm guessing. Will be interesting how they compare.

The Apex MTN still needs to be tuned in the clutch possibly because when I had it out for a couple miles on minimal snow I was over revving to 11,000rpm. Got it up to 80 mph on the dream meter though. I think it will be interesting to see the differences between them. The Apex MTN being heavier upfront but the longer track. I did like how the handlebars were setup on the Apex being taller and more rider forward.

My dad want to extend his Viper MTN and put handlebar risers on it.
Since we have the 05 Viper MTN's we also have the ProMountain suspension.
And then we also have the saddless mountain skis. These seemed to work great in the powder. I may know of a set coming up for sale, not sure how well it would work to ship them overseas though.

Snow is probably a month away yet. (I hope we get some) So I won't be able to tell you how the Apex MTN compares to the Viper MTN. Good luck with whatever you decide.
 
I have an '03 Mnt. Viper. I've had the same luck with mine that AKMntViper has had. I put SlP triples on it, SLP flo-rites, and have had to put some more weight in the primary arms. I'm running a straight 43 degree helix, SLP says a 47 under 6000' & a 43 over 6000'. My sled performs a lot better with the 43 all around. I think a short multi-angle will do even better, something like a 47-43, will try it this season hopefully. I haven't changed the head gasket or the head, don't even know what everyone is talking about, had zero problems with mine. SLP doesn't recommend any kind of head gasket change that I'm aware of. As far as powder bog, I'm the one that started the "infamous powder bog" thread in the mountain section, so you know I've had a lot of trouble with it. Towards the end of that thread you can see pictures of where I blocked off the openings on the underside of the hood that allowed underhood air to enter the airbox. Since doing that I've had zero powder bog, it is completely cured. It only gets air from the flo-rites in the dash. I constantly hear people say how amazed they are at where my sled will go for being only a 144". I've rode Yamaha my whole life but I'm very upset with the 4stroke direction they've gone, it just doesn't suit mnt riding IMO, at least not yet. When they did this with bikes it was the same way, weight was a big issue. You see where bikes are at now, everyone runs 4stroke. It is only a matter of time, but I don't think they're light enough yet. It's too bad they didn't keep a two stroke in the line up for a bit longer. The decision is yours, but I don't think you'll be disappointed if you choose to mod the Viper. I wouldn't spend all the money you're talking about though. Triple pipes, flo-rites, anti-ratchet drivers, and some clutch components to keep the peak rpm correct should go a long way. Like was mentioned above, be ready for about 6-7 mpg after triple pipes. I think lightweight trailing arms are a total waste. They bend/break very easily, don't match up with boondocking very well, save your money. Clip one rock and they'll be toast. If you decide to go with a different sled, as much as it pains me to say this, I'd go with a different brand. That's why I keep holding out, don't want to go to brand X, but an M8 or Dragon 800 would fit my riding style way better than any of the 4stroke offerings right now.
As far as the crotch rocket, I've also had those. As much fun as they are, you're finding out the same things I did. I'm not the kind of person that should own one, as I can't keep myself from doing stupid stuff on them. Of course, I waited until I laid it down and had lots of road rash and stitches before deciding I'm just not meant to own one. I'm sure you've heard the saying, "there's two types of motorcycle riders: Those that have wrecked, and those that are going to." You're already saying you regret some of the things you do on it, listen to your conscious. Trust me on this one, a lot of grief in the future if you continue down that rode.
 
if you follow turks advice, it only takes about 2 rides to get it right. followed his advice on my sxr and on brothers viper and are very happy with the results. the sxr was throw it in and run it. the viper needed the stock can and then it pulled hard.

lots of guys are upgrading their stock yamaha mountain skis to simmons or others for further weight loss. i have bout 2 sets from the 4 stroke side and they work really well on the sxr. viper gets its set this season. cheap upgrade if you do not want to go new.
 
Yes the simmons are for powder riding, but are excellent all around.They were developed by a guy out in the mountains of Utah I believe.You see a ton of them on mountain sleds not only for the flotation, but also for how they take care of the push that is often associated with a long track wanting to just go straight.There fantastic skis and if there is one negative its that they have more steering effort than many other skis, but I got used to it fast.They make two versions, the original 6" wide and the new 10" version same profile just wings on the 10" version, there huge looking lol!
 
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