89 phazer electrical problem

M

motofishsled

New member
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
54
Location
deerpark new york
I have this crazy electrical problem . When i put on the brakes ( sled not moving ) it makes sparking and grinding under the flywheel .
I have replaced every wire for the back lights , brake lights , light socket , brake light switch , removed the stator and tested with ohm meter (perfect ) . When i unplug the brake light switch it has no noise or sparking . The engine runs perfect always this does not effect it . At night you can actually see sparks coming out of flywheel . ANY IDEAS ? RECTIFIER ? VOLTAGE REGULATOR ?
 

Does it have electric start?
If so, it sounds like the starter is activating when the brake light circuit is energized. The brake light is wired through the igniton switch and it could be a fault in the switch. Maybe water in it. Or a crossed wire somewhere.

Unplug the red/white wire at the solenoid near the battery and try it.
 
Yes it has electric start . It is not the starter engaging . That is what i first thought . I ran it without the recoil and you can see it arcing under flywheel . The starter is original and had a lot of play in shaft so i replaced it . At first i thought it was starter gear hitting the flywheel . I made a 1/8" spacer for starter and tried that , no help . I just finished riding it with the power wire to the brake light switch disconnected , the engine works perfect , the proaction skid i adapted in this summer works great , and no arcing with wire disconnected . I connected a wire from battery positive to brake light switch and brake light works and no arcing . I put volt meter on battery , engine not running 12.5 volts , with engine running 12.5 volts . Not charging ? Could that be voltage regulator ? My friend owns suzuki polaris kawasaki dealer went over this with him and mechanic this morning they also think key switch , I am not sure , why would it not do it all the time if it is key switch . THANK YOU PZ1
 
I am not sure if you understood what I thought the problem might be. It is not that the starter would be contacting the flywheel because it is too close, it would be that the starter is engaging as if you turned the key switch to start when the engine is running. That may be what is happening when the brake light circuit is turned on. Did you unplug the red/white wire at the starter relay and try it?

After thinking about it, I do not think it would be the ignition switch. Does the electric start work like it should? Does the brake light come on when the starter is used?
 
Yes i understood what you said . The starter is not engaging when brake is put on .I just disconnected the red white wire that is not it .With the recoil off you can see inside the holes in flywheel while running , it is definitely not from starter engaging . The brake light does not come on when starting . I do not think it is water because it started this weeks ago and it sits in heated garage always . I just finished troubleshooting the charging system as in the yamaha service manual . 5 steps check wiring , check battery , check fuse , charging output , charging coil resistance . Every one is ok except charging output (I do not have amp meter with correct setting for that test ) Step 6 says if all ok rectifer is faulty ,replace it . Bad time for it to brake down , i was planning on going to vintage race next weekend . I put in alot of time on this one , i am lost ! THANK YOU PZ 1
 
The brake light uses the same electrical winding as the headlight. If you have a problem under flywheel, you would also have a problem with the headlight.

Anything under the flywheel that could create sparks would leave marks on the flywheel and on the windings.

Don't just disconnect the red wire, disconnect the positive cable going from the cylonoid (all forums should have a spelling button lol) to the starter. There is more then one red wire, one goes to the battery to recharge it.
 
On the early Phazer with electric start, the brake light is powered from the battery.

Correct that if you hear grinding and see sparks there should be some evidence of contact somewhere.



I ran a Phazer with the regulator disconnected for many hours (it was causing dim lights) and it did not blow out any lights. -They sure were bright though :D
Try it and see what happens.
 
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The brake light is not powered by the battery. It is powered by the lighting coil. The same coil that charges the battery. If you disconnect the battery, the taillight and brake light still work (though dim).

There are 4 coils under the flywheel 3 on the 84 model. The sorce coil and the pulse coil run the ignition. Lighting coil 1 runs the lighting and charges the battery. Lighting coil 2 powers the hot grips.

It will take him 2 minutes to disconnect the large cable going to the starter and prove it is or is not the starter. The red wire he disconnected is probably the one that charges the battery.
 
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The RED/WHITE wire is the starter activation wire and connects to the relay. The solid red wire connects directly to the battery.

Again, the brake light is operated by the battery. Look at a wiring diagram. When the engine is not running and you have the ignition switch in the ON position and apply the brake, the brake light comes on. If you leave the parking brake on and the key switch in the ON position with the engine not running, the battery will go dead, I can vouch for that.
 
You are correct that if the engine is not running, the light will come on. If the battery is disconnected and the engine is running, the brake light will come on. Which one actualy powers the lighting? Just to satisy you, I will pull out the microfich and double check. Since I went to the trouble to look and the information may help the original poster,
The brake light switch is powered by the brown wire (typical Yamaha main harness power). When the brake lever is pulled, this voltage is sent to the brake light. The brown wire is powered by the red wire when the key switch is turned to the on or start position. The red wire connects to the battery and the voltage regulator. The voltage regulator connects to the lighting coil.

I'm not here to argue with you, I simply wanted the original poster to verify it is not the starter motor engaging using a simple, second method.

I would be shocked if the problem were anything other then the starter bendix hitting the flywheel. There is nothing inside of the flywheel that can spark when only the brake is applied. There is a short causing the starter motor to engage. Disconnecting the heavy cable means no power can go to the starter, ever.
 
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When the engine is running and there is no battery, the generator coil is supplying current to the battery circuit. That also feeds the brake light.

My guess is that Yamaha connected the brake light to the battery so that the headlight would not dim when the brake is applied. it also gives a parking brake when the brake lock is used when the engine is off - a safety thing when parked beside a trail at night - switching the tail light on for a parking light is a common feature on motorcycles. It also allows the brake light to continue working if the engine kills with the sled in motion.
 
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enough ! It's his starter and we just have to convince him to prove us wrong :)

Geese and I only signed up to the forum to ask if anyone remembered if we could use the newer stile thumbwarmers on the unregulated hotgrip coil (which we can not do on the later Vmax series) of the phazer and exciter.
 
Just an observation (not arguing with anybody) - when talking electrical circuits one must consider all components connected to any given circuit and the effect they have on the electric properties of that particular circuit. (sorry, haven't been in school for almost 30 years so don't know where that came from)

Interesting discussion to some degree - I suppose one could argue that the coil generates the current and the battery modifies (some would say stores) it.

It's all good guys - I enjoy electrical discussions especially with sleds
 
Thank you everyone for your time .It is not the starter , I removed the starter , put 2 nuts where the starter goes and it still does it . I am not looking to argue with anyone , there are many super smart people here . I have owned this sled since 1988 ,the brake light never came on without the engine running .Also had more phazers and exciters with electric start and do not remember any lights working without engine running . I have the original service manual and it shows the battery in the lighting system . I am holding a brand new stator in my hand , it has 3 coils not 4 . The service manual shows pictures of entire electric systems with each system in different colors ,ignition system , lighting system , and charging system . The lighting system uses the battery and the voltage regulator not the rectifier. The ignition system uses only magneto , no rectifier no voltage regulator no battery . The charging system only uses the rectifier , no voltage regulator . I do not have a scanner or i would post these pictures . I do not have a amp meter that measure .6 of an amp (trying to get one now ) because that is only test i did not do in the troubleshooting charging system,if all ok it says rectifier is faulty . Just spoke to friend who knows his stuff (former pro motoer , biggest ultralight builder in NY , builds kit airplanes ,his opinion is rectifier is not converting ac to dc and that is back feeding to stator ? I do not know that is why i am here . Boat mechanic friend who is big time snowmobiler is coming over now to look at it . I am not stupid (former pro moto mechanic with over 30 years 2stroke experience , always known as having great bikes ) but this ones got me stumped . I look like DINGS picture right now . Please keep it coming i am getting closer .
 
How did the problem start? Had you made any changes anywhere?

As said before, there is apparently something contacting the flywheel and no matter what the problem is that is causing it, I would remove the flywheel and see what is happening under it. I know that is a real pain on an electric start phazer, but i think it is going to have to be done. There may be a bad crankshaft main bearing, or a loose coil, a loose ring gear, loose flywheel, or one of the coil attaching screws has backed out and is hitting the flywheel. When the brake light is drawing juice, there is a force added to the flywheel, the stator plate and the coil. That force could be moving something so that it contacts the flywheel.

For the brake light to come on with the engine not running, the key switch has to be on.
 
PZ 1 The problem started a couple weeks ago , first time used it this year . Nothing electrical was changed from last year . About two months ago i charged the battery and when removing the charger cable i hit the metal shield next to battery (grounding the positive from charger ) it stuck there for a second or two before i could pull it off . Maybe this burned something out ? the sled was completely restored in 2006 . The engine only has 300 miles on it . Brand new yamaha crank so no worn bearings . I did remove the stator thats how i tested it . No loose bolts on gear or stator . nothing is hitting the flywheel . Everything you say i already checked . This sled is mint not an old rust bucket i have restored every inch of it . This was the sled my brother used to ride so it has special meaning to me . I am going to give it to his son when he gets old enough to ride .Thats why i put at least 3000 into it . It has bender wide kit , 88 horsepower engine , comet and exciter!! clutching , exciter!! proaction 121 skid and too much to even remember . My boat mechanic friend just left he says if you connect battery charger backwoods on outboard it burns out rectifier .I do not know ? I do not remember brake light coming on without engine running ever . But i cannot remember because i only rode it for 10 minutes last year and not two years before that due to two stomach operations in a year and half . Thank you very much , there are alot of good people on this site .
 
I knew you said you had been in there, but if there is grinding and sparks....

Connect a jumper wire from a good ground on the crankcase to a good ground on the frame. Make sure the battery ground cable has good contact at both ends or bypass it with another jumper and try it.

Is there a good battery in the sled?

Remove the spark plugs, turn the switch on and squeeze the brake lever while turning the engine over by hand with the clutch and see how it turns.
 
I do not know why they do not give a rectifier test in the manual. It is a single diode rectifier and the normal way to test it would be to disconnect the wires from it and connect an ohmeter to the rectifier wires or terminals. Then reverse the leads. One way there should be a reading, the other way there should be no reading. If you get a reading both ways or no reading both ways, it is bad.
 
single diode rectifier
Click to expand...
The test is oms in one direction and not the other. It is a single phase rectifer.

One a side bar for Pz1. This week I finished work on a 1990 Exciter 570 electric start that had been previously converted to a non electric start lake racer with all the 1990 Bender options. The brake light did not work because the single phase rectifier was removed (along with all the electic start parts). To make the brake light work, I had to join the spade connectors (white wire to red wire) that should have run through this rectifier. ;) weighing the argument, you are correct that on the electric start model the lighting coil does not power the brake light. It does on this one now.
 
Motofishsled,
sparks from under the flywheel:
metal to metal contact
intermitant electrical contact (including loose screws and broken/shorted wires)
kids with sparklers

I'll stick around in hopes of learning somethin new (it happens every day)
 
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