30 mile blow up

SRXSRULE2 said:
The big thing is buying premium fuel from a gas station right now. I don't know about where you are but here no one buys premium fuel. It is too expensive so it just sits in the tanks and collects condensation (water). You go out for a ride, engine injests water or you have ice formation in the jets (low pressure area) and you have a lean burn down. Simple as that. The ethanol in the fuel doesn't matter. It has been in our regular fuel up here for years.
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Exactly.

You are much better off running 87 than old 93 octane. Now if you go to a place that has a known good turnover of premium then that will be fine.

Like I've said for years, I have been running E10 for ~20 years with NO problems in any of my motors.

Also, there is no MTBE anywhere around here anymore. All the ethanol is corn or other organic based ethanol.

For those uninformed, corn is a horrible food source and is largely undigestable by animals or humans. It's better off used as a fuel source, (heat or ethanol) than a food source as it is mostly a filler than gets run thorough an animals digestive tract, and very little is actually turned into energy. Most is just turned into poop.
 
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How is all this condensation forming when the gas station tanks are underground? I could see maybe a little, but its the above gound tanks that farmers and such have that get bad condenstaion. Its from the sun rays beating down on them all day. Our diesel tanks have formed a diesel algea due to this and the stuff plugs up the injectors and filters on the tractors. So it must be coming from the plant tanks.
 
Quote by Horkn...

For those uninformed, corn is a horrible food source and is largely undigestable by animals or humans. It's better off used as a fuel source, (heat or ethanol) than a food source as it is mostly a filler than gets run thorough an animals digestive tract, and very little is actually turned into energy. Most is just turned into poop.[/QUOTE]

Oh? There's 1000's of feedlot owners in North America who are going to feel like real dummies when they find out that what they have been using to finish there animals with was the wrong thing to use. The fact is that they are running a business and they know all the TDN %, NDF % starch, protien and DM of what they are feeding, and that generally cattle on a corn based diet will gain 1/4 more lbs per day than cattle on a barley based diet. It also takes 1/2 lb less of corn for cattle to gain 1 lb than for cattle to gain a 1lb on barley. Hammered or rolled, corn has more available energy than barley. Either way the farmers know at what feed price it is most efficient to finish using corn instead of barley, however I don't believe that everyone pushing ethanol usage telling them that it is a "horrible food source" is going to factor into their decision making.

Apologies for the thread hijack.
 
IMO, some of you make WAY to much out of this ethanol issue. Take a open mason jar, fill it half full with fuel. Mark the fuel line in the jar. Keep it open and put it in the most humid spot you can think of. Then post when you start to see water in the jar.

The ethanol is a lite end of fuel (fizz in pop). Keep it open and it will evaperate before it "sucks" any water from the air. Now the issue with that is flat fuel and it doesn't like to burn. Water isn't the problem then.

Yamahas heat the carb because the carb throat and slide can build ice (from humid air) on humid cold days. Then you have a stuck throttle. Nothing to do with whats in your fuel tank.

Water can be the problem with some of the burn downs. But if it is, a fuel sample from the sled tank will show it. If it is water then, you likely pumped it in
 
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Wayne084 said:
Quote by Horkn...

For those uninformed, corn is a horrible food source and is largely undigestable by animals or humans. It's better off used as a fuel source, (heat or ethanol) than a food source as it is mostly a filler than gets run thorough an animals digestive tract, and very little is actually turned into energy. Most is just turned into poop.
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Oh? There's 1000's of feedlot owners in North America who are going to feel like real dummies when they find out that what they have been using to finish there animals with was the wrong thing to use. The fact is that they are running a business and they know all the TDN %, NDF % starch, protien and DM of what they are feeding, and that generally cattle on a corn based diet will gain 1/4 more lbs per day than cattle on a barley based diet. It also takes 1/2 lb less of corn for cattle to gain 1 lb than for cattle to gain a 1lb on barley. Hammered or rolled, corn has more available energy than barley. Either way the farmers know at what feed price it is most efficient to finish using corn instead of barley, however I don't believe that everyone pushing ethanol usage telling them that it is a "horrible food source" is going to factor into their decision making.

Apologies for the thread hijack.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but just because farmers are feeding their animals corn, that does not necessarily mean it is the best source of food for them. Corn makes them fat, which adds weight to the animal, netting the owner more $$ when they are sold. Don't get me wrong, I will take a nicely marbled ribeye steak over a lean tenderloin any day.

One other issue is that water has ALWAYS been an issue in gas tanks that don't get used a lot. Way before ethanol was used, if you got premium gas from a station that had old gas, it would have water in it too.

Ever since E10 has been used , I have seen no carb icing issues, even on the same sleds that used to have ice up problems in previous years. A little isopropyl alcohol added to the tanks would clear up the issue on non ethanol gas, while with e-10 there is enough alcohol added already, and adding deicer isn't needed or recommended.
 
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And I thought this thread was about a poor Ski Doo guy, with another blown up engine. Boy was I wrong lol Keep it going guys Al
 
horkn are you a 2stroke tech for a living? if not you never have to be right! i do do this for a living so i have to be as right as i can, ever since this fuel (the reformulated/ oxgenated fuel) has been forced state wide? like 8-10yrs ago? there has been alot of fuel problems and all the same phazed,foggy fuel smelling like turpintine at times, jelly like substance in bowls and vapor seperators and its getting worse not better, know even seeing alot of 300.00 electric fuel pumps freezing up. so if its not the fuel and the additive package (ethonal) of the gods, then please tell US what is causing this, seeing how your the only( INFORMED UNASSUMING ONE!) THIS IS A FORUM SO SPREAD YOUR WORKING KNOWLEGE TO ALL THE UNINFORMED ! AND NOT INFO FROM A PRO ETHONAL SITE. THATS LIKE GOING TO A GAY SITE AND TRYING TO FIND WHATS BAD ABOUT BEING GAY! (just an example both sides are polar and the truth may be in the middle.)
 
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Easy now fellas! I think that we can all agree that since the first spark ignited the fuel in a combustion engine there have been burndowns and squeeks. Its the nature of the beast. This still holds true today and there are numerous reasons for it, not just, but certainly including fuel. The truth of the matter is it is becoming more of a crapshoot with todays fuel(whatever is in it). This just makes proper jetting a clean carbs even more than important these days, it makes it a must.

If you are running a smoker, be ready to get your hands dirty at some point....period.

Meat
 
It was a bad bore job. Took it to a guy with a bore guage and the whole thing looked like an egg; FUBAR'ed. FML!!

Ordered up a shortblock today. Anybody interested in a bottom end with a freshly rebuilt crank feel free to PM me. I will be posting my ad for the bottom end in the classifieds.

Quoted from the original owner on DOO talk. In the beginning we kindof figured too tight of clearances. Look back. Ethonal itself will not make this happen, Ethonal will deteriat fuel, clog passages, absorbe moisture, which in turn makes things like this happen, but it does take a little bit of time to ruin the fuel. I am investigating a small fuel water seperating filter, one small enough to fit between the pump and tank. Once I come up with a good arrangement I will post. Get back out and do another snow dance, I awoke and absolutly no snow at all on the ground. The ice on the lake is especially slick now though. Al
 
that is the same motor, but that isnt the owner, its his freind, the owner doesnt go to forums. now they took it to a dealer and the dealer said it could be water or bad bore and before he researched anything they took bad bore as gospel, the cylinder was never measured . and he made a poor choice, saying that mikes did a bad job with out multiple inspections! i started this thread not knowing about the other and just got off the phone with the owner. I do not believe the BORE WAS BAD, a bad bore would have seized the piston, not just scored one side,the coolest side.i will still stand by water beading ( water logged ethonal) on the side of the intake port is what did this on a fresh rebuild and the owner agrees!
 
have you seen the small racor filters, I am thinking these might be small enough to be located behind the air box. The problem is access to drain the seperated water. What do you think? I have had excellant results with the canester seperating filters on the boats. ?????? Al
 
now to the ethonal, all the things that are posted in favor of this fuel are about 4 stroke motors, in a four stroke, the fuel only goes in fuel system and the combustion chamber so its effects if any will be there! on a 2 stroke motor the fuel goes through out the motor bottom to top its the lube and the source of power! and the effects are far different!
 
alswagg a filter will add a restriction in the fuel system which is not good in most cases.the other thing is the filter will not seperate the water from the ethonal and the ethonal is the octane, so you would be allowing the low octane fuel to get to the motor and thats not good either. to me all those filters are a gimmic, there the same as the sediment glass bowls of the past, but metal with filter in them, the filter only filters the fuel, it doesnt stop water, the water collects at the bottom because its the lowest point, once its full it will flow right past it. if you dont believe me mount the filter can up and see how much water gets filtered out. filtering is not the answer, unless a filter would seperate the water from the ethonal and gas. if there is water in the bottom of a tank of ethonal the damage to the fuel is done! last year 16 55 gallon drums of bad fuel were collected at the marina of the doo owner.
 
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motor tech said:
horkn are you a 2stroke tech for a living? if not you never have to be right! i do do this for a living so i have to be as right as i can, ever since this fuel (the reformulated/ oxgenated fuel) has been forced state wide? like 8-10yrs ago? there has been alot of fuel problems and all the same phazed,foggy fuel smelling like turpintine at times, jelly like substance in bowls and vapor seperators and its getting worse not better, know even seeing alot of 300.00 electric fuel pumps freezing up. so if its not the fuel and the additive package (ethonal) of the gods, then please tell US what is causing this, seeing how your the only( INFORMED UNASSUMING ONE!) THIS IS A FORUM SO SPREAD YOUR WORKING KNOWLEGE TO ALL THE UNINFORMED ! AND NOT INFO FROM A PRO ETHONAL SITE. THATS LIKE GOING TO A GAY SITE AND TRYING TO FIND WHATS BAD ABOUT BEING GAY! (just an example both sides are polar and the truth may be in the middle.)
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I won't comment on your crude analogy, but no, I am not an engine tech by trade. I do possess a TON of years of knowledge in anything with a motor though, and have built and blown up my share to know better over the years.

It's been close to 20 years down here in SE Wisconsin that we have been using reformulated gas. As an engine tech by trade, you I'm sure know that there are usually multiple reasons why engines blow up. I have still yet to see one instance where ethanol itself is the culprit for a burn down.

One real issue about fuel is that there are several grades of base fuels that are out there. Some oil companies will use a low quality base fuel, and use the ethanol to raise the octane of the blended fuel. I think this is more of the issue with the issues rather than ethanol personally from my informed opinion. A better solution is to use a high grade base fuel that has ethanol blended in.

Just for example, I took out the venture this weekend and got it all set for the season. It was half full of known e10 87 octane when stored last early spring. A few cranks of the starter this weekend, and it was running perfectly, but as a precaution, as I always do, I filled the tank the rest of the way with fresh e10 87 octane after it fired up and idled for 10 minutes or so on the old gas.
I had not one issue, even in the 10 degree temps today and 30 miles of lake running because the trails were terrible at best.

I don't know if a fuel water separator filter would work, or even be worth the time to install.

I have one on my ski nautique, but that is a different beast.
 
horkn said:
It's been close to 20 years down here in SE Wisconsin that we have been using reformulated gas. As an engine tech by trade, you I'm sure know that there are usually multiple reasons why engines blow up. I have still yet to see one instance where ethanol itself is the culprit for a burn down.
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I agree. I've been using/storing ethanol blend in lawnmowers, snowblowers, two and four stroke motorcycles, snowmobiles, two and four stroke outboards as well as cars and trucks for over twenty years without a single gas related issue.
 
horkn, if i based my opinions or facts only on what happened to me and my motors, id almost be standing next to you yelling how ethanol is not as bad as people say, but i have had fuel phaze in my own equipment, and running poor at times, but i work on this stuff and can adjust or clean myself no big deal, but working on this stuff for a living, i see the problems daily from hundreds of customers state wide. and the problems have gotten worse since the fuel has been made manditory, 80/90% of the problems ARE FUEL related!(cloudy fuel,phazed fuel,ect.)in almost all cases, flush fuel system, clean carb, refill tank or run on shop tank with fresh fuel we have on site and good as new. no parts just labor and (fuel) if the customers want. now if that is not a fuel problem i dont know what is! there are times when you can just run it on the shop tank for a while and it will clear up ,others you have to clean up the jelly in the fuel system before it will run right. this is a daily,weekly,monthly occurance all having to do with fuel, all from different places. now horkn if you have never had a problem (ever!) your day will come, especially if you store your sled with the fuel in it like you said. but you will not post your blowup or problem you fix because then you would have to admit your wrong! clear jelly plugging a jet is a ethanol fuel problem and you can see through it
 
motor tech said:
horkn, if i based my opinions or facts only on what happened to me and my motors, id almost be standing next to you yelling how ethanol is not as bad as people say, but i have had fuel phaze in my own equipment, and running poor at times, but i work on this stuff and can adjust or clean myself no big deal, but working on this stuff for a living, i see the problems daily from hundreds of customers state wide. and the problems have gotten worse since the fuel has been made manditory, 80/90% of the problems ARE FUEL related!(cloudy fuel,phazed fuel,ect.)in almost all cases, flush fuel system, clean carb, refill tank or run on shop tank with fresh fuel we have on site and good as new. no parts just labor and (fuel) if the customers want. now if that is not a fuel problem i dont know what is! there are times when you can just run it on the shop tank for a while and it will clear up ,others you have to clean up the jelly in the fuel system before it will run right. this is a daily,weekly,monthly occurance all having to do with fuel, all from different places. now horkn if you have never had a problem (ever!) your day will come, especially if you store your sled with the fuel in it like you said. but you will not post your blowup or problem you fix because then you would have to admit your wrong! clear jelly plugging a jet is a ethanol fuel problem and you can see through it
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If I ever have simply a fuel issue (from ethanol) creating a burn down, I will post up here about it.
I have no problem with being wrong, but I have to have the facts substantiated to prove it.

Can you 100% guarantee that the people that bring in sleds with these fuel issues are using quality fuel to begin with?

It really has been 20+ years down here in SE WI that we have been running reformulated gasoline. The worst part I recall when the switch happened was fuel filters getting clogged on cars.

A couple years ago Snowtech had a great article about ethanol that would be very good to be able to post up here.
 
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