Well, the motor doesnt sound like its out in left field, but maybe we need to look a little deeper in it, like as to what the ign curve is you have in it?? What is your initial timing and total and what rpm is your advance in at?? Is this a 6al box 7al?? coil?
whats the diameter of the header tubes and the collector size?
Is the intake you have allow the direct bolting up of the 4500 series carbs to it and not using a adapter?
On to the rear suspension: what is it? you are geared tall with 33.5's and a 4.56, that puts you thru the traps at approx.5500rpm???? your camshaft has a power range of 4200-8200rpm, so your kinda lugging the motor in that area, also your not very far into your convertor at that kinda rpm in high gear(youll actually not transmit all the power available to the rear axle)
Anytime you get into a larger solid roller camshaft you will need longer pushrods, the cams are ground on a smaller base circle, they have to be in order to fit the cam in the block, otherwise to get the massive lobe lift youd be up past the cam bearing journals. They are also ground on differnt base circles to clear stroker crankshaft assemblies. This gives the rods more room to move at the top inside of the engine. Having staggered sized pushrods is very common as well. Alot of mistakes are made with pushrod length and roller rockers, you want to keep the roller centered on the valve stem thru its range of motion, most easily done with a adjustable pushrod, made to the correct length and then you measure it and get that size. When you have the wrong size pushrod the roller tip will go off the intake or exh side of the tip and contact sometimes the retainer, this can get real ugly if it moves the retainer keepers and it drops a valve at rpm............crunch
Hey Jr, the springs used to control these solid rollers are typicaly double or triple sets, they run from typically 220lbs seat pressure to over 500lbs open, theres some pressure for you at the top of the valve stem!! its simply amazing that those little keepers can keep the retainer on there at those pressures! of course when you get into a hyd roller those pressures are no where near that, or it would simply smash the hyd lifter pluger into the lifter base. Thats why a solid roller will be more aggressive in ramp angles and higher rpm range because you can control it with the springs. same applies to a solid flat tappet camshaft.
whats the diameter of the header tubes and the collector size?
Is the intake you have allow the direct bolting up of the 4500 series carbs to it and not using a adapter?
On to the rear suspension: what is it? you are geared tall with 33.5's and a 4.56, that puts you thru the traps at approx.5500rpm???? your camshaft has a power range of 4200-8200rpm, so your kinda lugging the motor in that area, also your not very far into your convertor at that kinda rpm in high gear(youll actually not transmit all the power available to the rear axle)
Anytime you get into a larger solid roller camshaft you will need longer pushrods, the cams are ground on a smaller base circle, they have to be in order to fit the cam in the block, otherwise to get the massive lobe lift youd be up past the cam bearing journals. They are also ground on differnt base circles to clear stroker crankshaft assemblies. This gives the rods more room to move at the top inside of the engine. Having staggered sized pushrods is very common as well. Alot of mistakes are made with pushrod length and roller rockers, you want to keep the roller centered on the valve stem thru its range of motion, most easily done with a adjustable pushrod, made to the correct length and then you measure it and get that size. When you have the wrong size pushrod the roller tip will go off the intake or exh side of the tip and contact sometimes the retainer, this can get real ugly if it moves the retainer keepers and it drops a valve at rpm............crunch
Hey Jr, the springs used to control these solid rollers are typicaly double or triple sets, they run from typically 220lbs seat pressure to over 500lbs open, theres some pressure for you at the top of the valve stem!! its simply amazing that those little keepers can keep the retainer on there at those pressures! of course when you get into a hyd roller those pressures are no where near that, or it would simply smash the hyd lifter pluger into the lifter base. Thats why a solid roller will be more aggressive in ramp angles and higher rpm range because you can control it with the springs. same applies to a solid flat tappet camshaft.
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I thought the guy got his answer for doing the cylinders and we moved on from there. He even posted that he got his answer.
Just because I disagree with someone doesnt mean I hate them, I move on. Ya cant live life hating everyone, a good debate is what makes this country great. I think (my own opinion now) that if a guy can just for a minute look at what the other person is saying, sometimes just sometimes ,you can open up a new window in your thought process, and sometimes something you have known or thought you have known wasnt exactly as you knew it.
Just because I disagree with someone doesnt mean I hate them, I move on. Ya cant live life hating everyone, a good debate is what makes this country great. I think (my own opinion now) that if a guy can just for a minute look at what the other person is saying, sometimes just sometimes ,you can open up a new window in your thought process, and sometimes something you have known or thought you have known wasnt exactly as you knew it.
mrviper700
Very well stated.
Very well stated.
nosboy said:
Sorry to hear that but every race motor blows eventually unless parts are changed frequently. Personally I have never had that missfortune. I always build my own engines that way I'm the only one to blame if it does blow. When I was racing my engines were taken apart every year and sent to the machine shop for magnafluxing. Everything was checked very carefully. The converter was sent out to get checked, and the trans and diff were inspected. It costs a lot every year but again I never had a mechanical problem. I know of others that do the same every year and have blown motors, so I guess I'm just lucky or just more carefull.
JERSEYJOE
Member
Viper Cylinders
You are right I got my answer. I am going to run a 240 hone for a few passes just to cleanup. It does not bother me in the least the noseboy hijacked the thread. Kind of funny reading his posts.
You are right I got my answer. I am going to run a 240 hone for a few passes just to cleanup. It does not bother me in the least the noseboy hijacked the thread. Kind of funny reading his posts.
The ignition is a 6al I THINK!!! I set the timing at 36 deg at 3000 rpm. It HAS ADVANCE springs in the distributor and I THINK its hurting me????? The intake to carb has an adaptor (i was told that its the way to go).. I used to have a 4.88 gear and 32 inch tall tires.. The car would launch at 3400 (chip) and would get to around 1240 feet and RUN OUT OF ROOM (7000 chip) i am SCARED SHITLESS to run the motor past 7000!!! You could look out the side window, look at the tach at 7000 and feel the STUTTER and you have about 4 car lengths to go to the traps!!!! I put the 32.5 tires on it and went about another 15 or 20 feet before the STUTTER!!!!! it was about $800.00 for the 2 tires and new tubes!!! FOR 15 FEET!!!!! The dana 60 is a 4 link with coil over koni's and the pinion angle is ABOVE centerline (level) about 1 degree.. i was told that it should be pointing DOWN 4 degrees!!!! The car drives straight (finally after the spool) and the motor still has some left with the 4.56.. I am thinking about a STROKER motor, thats why the 4.56.. it costs around 2000.00 so far with the 35 spline strange axles,spool,and the richmond PRO GEAR!!! I RAN INTO the pushrod GEOMETRY problem and NO ONE was willing )even indy) to give me the secrets.. I FOUND OUT THE HARD WAY about the adjuster being out enough to stop the pushrod cups from DESTROYING a set of rockers (another 4 or 500.00 mistake).. I only chewed up 3 or 4 rockers,,,but,,,still bought another set.. The valves are TRIPLE SPRING with spacers underneath and I can only go 650 before they BIND!!!!! When the rods let loose, the pistons PUNCHED the heads and I lost 4 valves and had some UGLY combustion chambers... After welding the heads back up and grinding them PRETTY AGAIN,,, I PAYED REAL close attention to EVERYTHING!!!! I dont want to tell you THAT I STRETCHED THE RODBOLTS past the .001 variance on the two cylinders that let loose,,, but I THINK I KNOW WHY the motor came apart...I know I am going to need new heads to put the stroker motor together and maybe I,ll sell the cuda and start with the GOOD STUFF!!!! Gary Oles nosboy
ok, when you set the ignition timing are you just turning the distributor housing till it shows 36 degrees or are you setting your intial at like 12-14 degrees and bring the rest of the 36 degrees in with the advance mechanism in the distrbutor?
The pinion angle is where your most likely getting some your stutter/shaking feeling from, it also will affect the way the car hooks up, maybe why your 60fts are not so good. The pinion gear tries to climb the ring gear, so its automaticly gonna try and move upwards, you already have 1 degree up so your driveshaft is going out of plane to the rear axle yoke. (( is the motor and trans on solid mounts??))It should be between 1.5-3 degrees down for drag racing. Pinion angle is the angle between the trans tailshaft housing and the plane of the rear axle yoke.
Also have you ever figured out where your instant center is with your 4 link?
The pinion angle is where your most likely getting some your stutter/shaking feeling from, it also will affect the way the car hooks up, maybe why your 60fts are not so good. The pinion gear tries to climb the ring gear, so its automaticly gonna try and move upwards, you already have 1 degree up so your driveshaft is going out of plane to the rear axle yoke. (( is the motor and trans on solid mounts??))It should be between 1.5-3 degrees down for drag racing. Pinion angle is the angle between the trans tailshaft housing and the plane of the rear axle yoke.
Also have you ever figured out where your instant center is with your 4 link?
vipertripplexxx
New member
Nosboy,
Aluminum rods are a must! Run'er up around 7200. You need an ignition with about 4-5 degrees timming retard starting @ 5500-6000 RPM. This is huge, we gained 2 tenths on a savoy with about the same motor you are running went from 10.5's too 10.2's with this change alone. leaf springs, and full body. We were using B-1 heads and intake, not sure how your heads compare? With aluminum rods you can get around 7400 safe RPM. Right now sounds like your running low on the RPM's. We were not cheaters with NOS!!(no offense)M2C. Oh yea mess with that 4-link, it can do better.
Aluminum rods are a must! Run'er up around 7200. You need an ignition with about 4-5 degrees timming retard starting @ 5500-6000 RPM. This is huge, we gained 2 tenths on a savoy with about the same motor you are running went from 10.5's too 10.2's with this change alone. leaf springs, and full body. We were using B-1 heads and intake, not sure how your heads compare? With aluminum rods you can get around 7400 safe RPM. Right now sounds like your running low on the RPM's. We were not cheaters with NOS!!(no offense)M2C. Oh yea mess with that 4-link, it can do better.
EricMichael said:
what body shop you work at? i used to work at P&D autobody in PI.
Launch the car without a chip, on the converter, Dominator carbs work best at high rpm, If possible get a dominator intake or use a Holley HP 4150 carb and loose the adapter. Set your pinion angle down 1 dagree, preload the right rear on the 4-link(this will have to be done at the track) adjust till the car goes straight. You may have to play with shock settings too. Instant center is important for initial set up, but you will still have to adjust from there. Get rid of the waights in the distributor and lock it. If you are launching at 3400 it may not be at full advance with the springs and waights. It will also idle better and not load up if it's locked. Aluminum rods are good for less rotating mass, but they stretch and must be replaced every 200 passes or your asking for trouble. As for push rods you need to get or make adjustable one's to check proper length and order the kit, They have to be cut to length and then press the ends on. If the car is on the chip at the end of the track you have too mutch gear. Set the chip at 7100 and you should go through off the chip. Or try 33'' tires. I alway's used an S tire, It has a stiffer sidewall and will give you a better 60 foot because the tire doesn't wrap as mutch on launch. You will get more consistant lights too. Also run the tires tubeless. Valve spring pressure at installed hight and at full lift is very important. Coil bind is a disaster waiting to happen. This has to be fixed. I would not run the engine without checking it.
They say the adapter makes 11hp!!!I set the timing at 36 degrees at 3000 rpm. the advance springs come in at around 1800 so its at full advance at 3000 rpm.I went to a 33 tire and got about another 11 feet!!! with the 4.56 the car goes through the traps at around 6600 not 7000 like it used to.. Now there is something left.. The car used to run 10.700's with the old 4.88 gear, now it runs 10.200's with a 4 56 rear end!!! The pinion angle is HORRIBLE and I am thinking about launching it higher like around 3800 insted of 3400... the convertor is at 5000 so there may be some slip from 3400 to 5000 but it gets there right away!!! As far as the pushrods. I went through an adjustable pushrod because the springs were too tuff!!! I wound up making my own adjustable pushrod (4130) and it worked fine!!! it took a couple of sets of pushrods before I had a smith brothers set made.. the exhausts are .050 smaller than the intakes!!! I THOUGHT it wouldidle WORSE with the distributor LOCKED!!! It runs like CRAP and doesnt idle under 2000 rpm,, but thats because of the cam!!! Thanks for the good info and well talk!!! Gary Oles nosboy
a 4150 holley adapter to a 4500 series carb doesnt make power they lose it! your raising the carb even further from the intake which results in a loss of the signal the engine recieves from the carb, resulting in a weaker signal. is your intake a single plane intake?
As far as the timing goes, thats the incorrect way to do it, you dont twist the distributor to get your 36 advance, you most likely have more then 36 total timing above 3000rpm and this hinders topend power ALOT. You need ign advance to rev the motor smoothly but too much advance at peak rpm and your actually blowing the flame out, the spark is there before the fuel charge is from the intake valve. If your not going to lock out the distributor, (this is the only way you turn the housing to achieve your desired total timing), but its also dangerous as if the engine were to kick back when warm, I have seen starters hanging by the battery cable with the corner of the engine block still bolted to the starter so be warned, alot of people do it but it can bite you back. With what you currently have you need to set the timing with a advance dial timing light, with the engine warmed up you set your initial adavance at 12-14 degrees, then rev your engine up and see what your total timing is above 3000rpm, you might be startled to see you have more like 38-40 degrees with the weights in the distributor, this would require you to change the springs and sometimes the weights to achieve the correct timing total. on msd distibutors they come with a advance curve sheet and tell you what combo of springs/weights will give you"x" amount of advance and at what approx rpm range.
As far as the timing goes, thats the incorrect way to do it, you dont twist the distributor to get your 36 advance, you most likely have more then 36 total timing above 3000rpm and this hinders topend power ALOT. You need ign advance to rev the motor smoothly but too much advance at peak rpm and your actually blowing the flame out, the spark is there before the fuel charge is from the intake valve. If your not going to lock out the distributor, (this is the only way you turn the housing to achieve your desired total timing), but its also dangerous as if the engine were to kick back when warm, I have seen starters hanging by the battery cable with the corner of the engine block still bolted to the starter so be warned, alot of people do it but it can bite you back. With what you currently have you need to set the timing with a advance dial timing light, with the engine warmed up you set your initial adavance at 12-14 degrees, then rev your engine up and see what your total timing is above 3000rpm, you might be startled to see you have more like 38-40 degrees with the weights in the distributor, this would require you to change the springs and sometimes the weights to achieve the correct timing total. on msd distibutors they come with a advance curve sheet and tell you what combo of springs/weights will give you"x" amount of advance and at what approx rpm range.
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It was an article a few months ago about the indy heads and intake that the carb adaptor to a dominator actually gains 11hp on the dyno.. it was INSANE when i was told by indy to use the adaptor.. i thought it would hurt.. they did tests and it was in a mopar magazine last month... Do you think setting the timing at 36 @3000 rpm's with the DISTRIBUTOR LOCKED is the way to go??? A few people told me that I need to get those advance springs and flyweights OUT of the equation..... I have been suspended for 7 days thats why i didnt get back to you right away... I'm thinking of going to the lockout collar thingy for the distributor......
vipertripplexxx
New member
Thats common for a carb spacer too gain top end H.P. it gives more plenum volume, which usually hurts bottom end torque, but gains top end horsepower.
As for the ignition, do the 7al box, lock the distributor, and put in a timming retard chip. I would start with 4-6 degrees retard @ 5500 rpm. Total timming of 36-38 degrees, all in @ 3800. This will give you alot more top end revs, and the motor won't lie down on the big end.
It looks as though you have a high swirl head. I checked online to see what the chambers look like, and I would call indy, and see what they say too run for timming. If you are using a head with alot of swirl, you can usually run alot less timming than the standard wedge @ 38 degrees, this is what the old heads would run at. I would bet the bank if you call them they will say too run somewhere around 34 total advance, plus a retard recomendation of 6-8 degrees. This may be why running at a lower RPM is gaining you E.T.
Steveo
As for the ignition, do the 7al box, lock the distributor, and put in a timming retard chip. I would start with 4-6 degrees retard @ 5500 rpm. Total timming of 36-38 degrees, all in @ 3800. This will give you alot more top end revs, and the motor won't lie down on the big end.
It looks as though you have a high swirl head. I checked online to see what the chambers look like, and I would call indy, and see what they say too run for timming. If you are using a head with alot of swirl, you can usually run alot less timming than the standard wedge @ 38 degrees, this is what the old heads would run at. I would bet the bank if you call them they will say too run somewhere around 34 total advance, plus a retard recomendation of 6-8 degrees. This may be why running at a lower RPM is gaining you E.T.
Steveo
springtime is right around the corner.. I havent the time to put together the stroker motor until probably the end of summer.. The can can only go .200 faster to stay in the "pro" class.. if I go any faster, I have to go into super pro and THAT IS A WHOLE OTHER story.. These super pro guys cut lights like they were TOP FUEL or PRO STOCK drivers!!! i can't cut those kinda lights!!! (YET)
Actually, it's cylindrical... or lack of ovality! ;>)
springtime is right around the corner.. I havent the time to put together the stroker motor until probably the end of summer.. The can can only go .200 faster to stay in the "pro" class.. if I go any faster, I have to go into super pro and THAT IS A WHOLE OTHER story.. These super pro guys cut lights like they were TOP FUEL or PRO STOCK drivers!!! i can't cut those kinda lights!!! (YET),
I loved the pro class, stiff tire, delay box and your there. Cutting good lights is easyer with a box, but you still have to react the same as foot brake. Its also easyer to practice if you have a practice tree. Better pay out too!!!
I loved the pro class, stiff tire, delay box and your there. Cutting good lights is easyer with a box, but you still have to react the same as foot brake. Its also easyer to practice if you have a practice tree. Better pay out too!!!
The skivy on carb spacers all depends upon the plenum angle of the intake to the cylinder head, so just bolting on a spacer does not get you topend hp! If the intake plenum runner is of a flatter design adding the spacer and raising the carb will lose everywhere thru out the powerband! I will however agrree to a very slight increase at peak only when you have a very steep angle on the runners,However, the loss from the lowend cannot justify the small gain you get up top! If you look at a tunnel ram, you will notice the angle in which the plenum runner is entering the cylinder head. I have been on the dyno at trick flow and watched many designs bite the big bullet and LOSE all the way thru, its all about the angle in which the intake enters the cylinder head. The turtle insert from brodix showed a flow improvement and slight power increase, on a single plane intake but this is not a carb adaptor. You will see the best results from having the correct intake to carb mounting pattern, the intake is designed to work at a certain height, the edge in which you create by using a spacer, just below the carb mounting flange along with the angle of the runer to the intake port of the head can and will destoy the intakes flow.
have u ever look at those supersucker spacer one of my friend gain like 10 hp with is 572 chevy on dyno test
Some spacers will give more power at high rpm, I don't know of one or have heard of one that will give more bottom end and top end. The problem with nosboy's setup is he has a dominator carb with a 4150 intake. Thats going big to small in the plenum, probably creating some turbulance and restriction. Changing to a matched intake and carb with the matched spacer will give mutch better low end power and throttle response, and probably idle better. I still think you should leave off the converter. You have a Dana rear 4 link and big tire. Why not? My opinion, you have to get rid of the springs and waights in the distributor or at least pin it so you know its not advancing too far. Advanced timing at high rpm will slow you down. 5 dagrees too mutch could slow you down 3 10th's or more.