2008

ExpertXViper said:
Cause the R1 and MOST Street bikes make there HP and TQ in much higher RPMS than say the Apex motor. Reason alot of Tight n Twisty mountain-street riders roll with a V-twin street bike or even a Supermoto Style Bike, more of a broad powerband and with that you wont need to rev as high to make the power. Compared to a R1 or CBR top end motor. Which with the right rider and less HP, will walk all over a Inline4 street bike with more HP when riding tight turns of mountain road. But if your all E-way(City) or Track then a R series, CBR, GSXR, Busa should be your bike of choice.

R1 motor would be great for lake running but corner to corner trail riding, the Apex would beat it through the woods with 150hp.
Click to expand...

Cornerspeed determines how fast a rider can go in tight twisty mountain sections, powerband and total horespower have little effect on this.

The current Apex engine is old tech. It is based off of the 02-03 R1. The 04 and newer R1s have nothing in common with the Apex. Shorter stroke, more overrev and peak power at 12,750 and redline at 13,750. They make 172+ horsepower at the crank with plenty of room for improvement by adding a header and powercommander.
 
Yea GOING INTO A CORNER, but to pull out of a corner YOUR R1 will need to spin more R's than a Vtwin. (So while your bike is reving the Vtwin has already been making power)To pull the same amount of TORQUE, which if you over rev your R1 you will end up doing a unwanted wheelie. Vtwins have less top end power than a Inline4(Peaky Powerband), cause you sacrifice it for a broader powerband.

Main reason you do not see 2strokes(Peaky Powerband) running in Supermoto OR in Supercross(rarely found nowadays), cause it DOES NOT have the broad powerband of a 4stroke. With a 2stroke bike, you have to build the R's up more to make the same amount of power to pull outta of a corner, which if you over throttle you will either wheelie or create alot of wheel spin. This is the reason why 4strokes bikes are faster out on the dirt and asphalt than a 2stroke(Stock vs Stock) or (Modified vs Modified). Instead of having to build your r's up to come out of a corner, the broad powerband of a 4stroke eliminates all of that and pulls from very low R's which eliminates the chance of a wheelie and creates less wheel spin. Less wheel spin the faster you make it to the next jump or corner, which turns into faster lap times.

I also NEVER said the 2 motors had anything in COMMON cause I know there 2 completely diff. beasts.

Argue if ya like, but if ya choose to I'm just gunna laugh it off and leave it be. Cause I've done alot of homework on these machines. (BIKES)
But find yourself someone with a CR450F or YZ450F with some street tires on it and run it againest your R1 in a straight line. I'll bet ya he gives ya a good run for your money 0-60mph, esp. if he matchs ya with a jet kit and Full Exhaust. KTM's SMR560 will holds its own till around 75-80mph maybe more. Why cause that ONE huge piston is creating massive amounts of torque from the bottom to the top.
 
Last edited:
ExpertXViper said:
Yea GOING INTO A CORNER, but to pull out of a corner YOUR R1 will need to spin more R's than a Vtwin. (So while your bike is reving the Vtwin has already been making power)To pull the same amount of TORQUE, which if you over rev your R1 you will end up doing a unwanted wheelie. Vtwins have less top end power than a Inline4(Peaky Powerband), cause you sacrifice it for a broader powerband.

Main reason you do not see 2strokes(Peaky Powerband) running in Supermoto OR in Supercross(rarely found nowadays), cause it DOES NOT have the broad powerband of a 4stroke. With a 2stroke bike, you have to build the R's up more to make the same amount of power to pull outta of a corner, which if you over throttle you will either wheelie or create alot of wheel spin. This is the reason why 4strokes bikes are faster out on the dirt and asphalt than a 2stroke(Stock vs Stock) or (Modified vs Modified). Instead of having to build your r's up to come out of a corner, the broad powerband of a 4stroke eliminates all of that and pulls from very low R's which eliminates the chance of a wheelie and creates less wheel spin. Less wheel spin the faster you make it to the next jump or corner, which turns into faster lap times.

I also NEVER said the 2 motors had anything in COMMON cause I know there 2 completely diff. beasts.

Argue if ya like, but if ya choose to I'm just gunna laugh it off and leave it be. Cause I've done alot of homework on these machines. (BIKES)
But find yourself someone with a CR450F or YZ450F with some street tires on it and run it againest your R1 in a straight line. I'll bet ya he gives ya a good run for your money 0-60mph, esp. if he matchs ya with a jet kit and Full Exhaust.
Click to expand...

Im not here to argue either, supersport bikes and supermoto bikes are apples and oranges. I dont agree with the v-twin vs I-4s, as long as they are opperated in the correct Rpm band they will accelerate at nearly the same rate, ask Ducati, they now want a 100 more cc's to "level the playing field".
As far as racing a 450 to 60mph with an R1, sure why not, I would be a little over half way through 1st gear. ;)!
 
Ok besides all the other stuff, back to Toms question why they dont just drop a R1 motor into a Apex. Do you think that engine in STOCK form would suite the needs of MOUNTAIN or TRAIL riders making its peak power at almost 13,000rpms?????
 
ExpertXViper said:
Ok besides all the other stuff, back to Toms question why they dont just drop a R1 motor into a Apex. Do you think that engine in STOCK form would suite the needs of MOUNTAIN or TRAIL riders making its peak power at almost 13,000rpms?????
Click to expand...

Gear reduction, the Phazer-Rx1- and Apex have it.
 
Yes but all those motors were designed for gear reduction, the R1 motor IS NOT designed for a gear reduction. And even still your powerband will still be PEAKY.

BTW: Ducati is wanting the 100cc increase for TOP-END POWER not low-midrange, because why......... Vtwins create the MOST of there power between LOW-END and MIDRANGE not TOP-END.

Search any Streetbike forum(I'm not doin the work for ya) and read up on your I4 vs Vtwin in TIGHT corner to corner riding. Also read the peoples comments about coming from a I4 bike to a Vtwin . All they talk is TORQUE-TORQUE-TORQUE with alot less twist of the throttle. My dads buddy RACES tracks from Michigan to Indiana, just for fun. His TRACK BIKE CBR1000RR cause the turns are more spread out thoughout the track and are mostly high speed turns. His TIGHT TRACK and TIGHT ROAD BIKE RC51 VTWIN....WHY??????Cause it pulls outta corners faster cause he doesnt have to wait for her to rev to make a decent amount of torque.

But Im all done with this non-sense. Back to thinking what Yamaha has lined up nexted for the 08 season.

SORRY FOR THE OFF TOPIC GUYS!!!!!!!
 
Last edited:
tomseal6 said:
Top performance 180HP 4 stroke

Trail performance 150HP 4 stroke

Entry level Choice between 80 or 120 HP 4 stroke
Click to expand...


Not a pun...... but, 150Hp/Trail and 80/120Hp ENTRY..... WOW... I hope not..... this sport does not need any more bad press ammo for the wackos ?
 
have they announced when the unveiling will be? it would be neat to see even more power out of the apex line, but you have to start to wonder when it will stop... when will the insurance companies put such a premium on high powered sleds that they end up selling slow and dying out. just like muscle cars. they were getting BIG power in the right motors, but insurance (and fuel shortage finished it off) started taking them down until recently. seems like making the driveline more efficient would be a better use of technology. lose a TON of power through the damn belt lol!
 
ExpertXViper said:
Yes but all those motors were designed for gear reduction, the R1 motor IS NOT designed for a gear reduction. And even still your powerband will still be PEAKY.

BTW: Ducati is wanting the 100cc increase for TOP-END POWER not low-midrange, because why......... Vtwins create the MOST of there power between LOW-END and MIDRANGE not TOP-END.

Search any Streetbike forum(I'm not doin the work for ya) and read up on your I4 vs Vtwin in TIGHT corner to corner riding. Also read the peoples comments about coming from a I4 bike to a Vtwin . All they talk is TORQUE-TORQUE-TORQUE with alot less twist of the throttle. My dads buddy RACES tracks from Michigan to Indiana, just for fun. His TRACK BIKE CBR1000RR cause the turns are more spread out thoughout the track and are mostly high speed turns. His TIGHT TRACK and TIGHT ROAD BIKE RC51 VTWIN....WHY??????Cause it pulls outta corners faster cause he doesnt have to wait for her to rev to make a decent amount of torque.

But Im all done with this non-sense. Back to thinking what Yamaha has lined up nexted for the 08 season.

SORRY FOR THE OFF TOPIC GUYS!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

The 600cc supersports and 1000cc v-twins usually run the same lap times, the 600's do it with 45ftlbs at the rear wheel at right around 10,000 rpms.
 
bender also said that they would send customers the reaction suspension they ordered.... that really panned out ;) 130hp phazer is what they make now with a turbo. I really doubt yamaha would have a 130 phazer, but I could be wrong. I think we will see a phazer derived chassis with the tripple in it. I mean hell, it took yamaha how long before all their sleds had the dual bulb headlight? they like to trickle the tech so there is always at least one new thing per year. my thoughts
 
Robbie's latest racer

New for 2008 you ask? Look at the newly refined snow-X sled that Robbie Malinoski ran at BIR. I believe we got a preview to the next new sled from Yamaha. They did this back in 2001 just before they introduced the Viper. Take a close look at side panels and hood cover, these are production ready parts. Granted not everything on the snow-X sled will see it's way into production, but the chasis and exterior body work will. I'll bet there will be an updated tripple motor with FI (around 125hp). Possibly a better rear suspension based on the snow-Xer or Phazer design. The new machine will be the replacement for the aging RS chasis with its rearward sitting style. Yamaha will regain market share with the mogul mashing, ditch banger crowd! :bump:
 
cacsrx1 said:
The 600cc supersports and 1000cc v-twins usually run the same lap times, the 600's do it with 45ftlbs at the rear wheel at right around 10,000 rpms.
Click to expand...


Ok I'm gunna do a comparsion for you, using a 03 CBR600RR and 03 RC51.

CBR600RR
Peak HP:107.2@13,500rpm
Peak TQ: 45.4@11,000rpm
Wet Weight:445
Dry Weight:416
Quarter Mile: 10.73@129.7mph
60-80MPH:4.23sec.
80-100MPH:4.66sec.
Top Speed:162.2

RC51
Peak HP:123.6@9250rpm
Peak TQ: 72.6@8250
Wet Weight:483
Dry Weight:454
Quarter Mile:10.49@132.7mph
60-80MPH:4.23
80-100MPH:4.71
Top Speed: Could not find it for 03, but 00 model was 163mph.

Power to Weight Ratio
CBR600RR: 445/107= 4.15lbs every 1hp
RC51:483/123= 3.92lbs every 1hp
Not far off there, but look at the TORQUE difference.


Now that the numbers are down I can explain. If ya look YOUR I4 makes its PEAK HP and TQ at a much higher RPM than a V-TWIN. With the VTWIN only having to rev to 8250rpm for gain of 72ft-lbs(This is whats hurts a VTWIN on TOP-END), compared to you having to rev to 11,000rpms for ONLY 45ft-lbs....27ft-lbs more than a I4 but a at a much lower rpm. Then compare the weight(WET)483RC51 compared to 445CBR, a weight saving of 38LBS on the CBR!!!!!!!! ALOT of extra weight when trying to accelerate 80-160mph on a 400-500lb. bike , dont ya think????? I think so. Quarter mile times: The VTWIN gains its lower drag times from its Low and Midrange Power(0-60mph). WHY???? 70FT-LBS of TORQUE at 2750rpms less than the I4!!!!!! Your I4 gets it times from (80-PLUSmph) and lower weight. Cause ya look at the 60-80MPH exactly the SAME, but THEN look at the 80-100MPH times. The I4 starts getting closer to her sweet spot which makes it .05sec faster. So once your past that point, the I4 gains MORE power while you keep shifting and reving. WHILE THE V-TWIN IN LOSING IS TORQUE IN IN THOSE RPM's, but making it PEAK HPat 9250rpm. While the I4 is gaining in BOTH areas when reving past 10000rpm and AGAIN (LIGHTER). Thats why the GEARING in a I4 is completely opposite from a VTWIN inside the gearbox. All I can say is grab 2 beginner riders put one on a VTWIN and the other on a I4, see who wins. All bets are off and I'm goin with the guy on the VTWIN. Cause it has WAY MORE usable power than a High Reving I4. If you have a PRO or VERY VERY Experienced rider, YES they can make them run side by side, but this is what you see on TV. On a TIGHT track the rider on a VTWIN will have a easier time running through the gears and pulling harder out of corners compared to a High Reving I4.

Want to compare bikes!!!!!
http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/146_street_bike_performance_times/

But this is my FINAL POST on all this. You can keep on NOT believing me on all this, I really dont care . But I will tell ya this info is either coming from me and YEARS of reading these types of mags OR from a guy that has been RIDING, TUNING, and RACING these type of machines for 20 plus years. So like I do on this site I'm gunna listen to the most experience and knowledged person I know of. THE END
Brett
 
Last edited:
ExpertXViper said:
Ok I'm gunna do a comparsion for you, using a 03 CBR600RR and 03 RC51.

CBR600RR
Peak HP:107.2@13,500rpm
Peak TQ: 45.4@11,000rpm
Wet Weight:445
Dry Weight:416
Quarter Mile: 10.73@129.7mph
60-80MPH:4.23sec.
80-100MPH:4.66sec.
Top Speed:162.2

RC51
Peak HP:123.6@9250rpm
Peak TQ: 72.6@8250
Wet Weight:483
Dry Weight:454
Quarter Mile:10.49@132.7mph
60-80MPH:4.23
80-100MPH:4.71
Top Speed: Could not find it for 03, but 00 model was 163mph.

Power to Weight Ratio
CBR600RR: 445/107= 4.15lbs every 1hp
RC51:483/123= 3.92lbs every 1hp
Not far off there, but look at the TORQUE difference.


Now that the numbers are down I can explain. If ya look YOUR I4 makes its PEAK HP and TQ at a much higher RPMs than a V-TWIN. With the VTWIN only having to rev to 8250rpm for gain of 72ft-lbs(This is whats hurts a VTWIN on TOP-END), compared to you having to rev to 11,000rpms for ONLY 45ft-lbs....27ft-lbs more than a I4 but a at a much lower rpm. Then compare the weight(WET)483RC51 compared to 445CBR, a weight saving of 38LBS!!!!!!!! ALOT of extra weight when trying to accelerate 0-160mph , dont ya think????? I think so. Quarter mile times: The VTWIN gains its lower drag times from its Low and Midrange Power(0-60mph). WHY???? 70FT-LBS of TORQUE at 2750rpms less than the I4!!!!!! Your I4 gets it times from (80-PLUSmph) and lower weight. Cause ya look at the 60-80MPH exactly the SAME, but THEN look at the 80-100MPH times. The I4 starts getting closer to her sweet spot which makes it .05sec faster. So once your past that point, the I4 gains MORE power while you keep shifting and reving. WHILE THE V-TWIN IN LOSING IS POWER IN IN THOSE RPM's, CAUSE SHE IS NOT BUILT TO RUN IN THAT RPM RANGE. Thats why the GEARING in a I4 is completely opposite from a VTWIN inside the gearbox.

Want to compare bikes!!!!!
http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/146_street_bike_performance_times/

But this is my FINAL POST on all this. You can keep on NOT believing me on all this, I really dont care . But I will tell ya this info is either coming from me and YEARS of reading these types of mags AND from a guy that has been RIDING, TUNING, and RACING these type of machines for 20 plus years. So like I do on this site I'm gunna listen to the most experience and knowledged person I know of. THE END
Brett
Click to expand...

Dont worry Im on the SportRider websit almost everyday, I have rode and owned many of the bikes U are talking about. From the statements U have made and the drag race comparison shown up top I can tell U have little experiance with sportbikes. U show this by saying, "r1's have a peaky powerband", ride any I-4 literbike and tell me its peaky, or all the numbers in your last post, when sportbikes are dragraced they are launched at peak torque, that my be 8000, 10000, whatever, anything below that doesnt matter. As far as 38 pounds of weight difference, two thirds of that could be between a full or empty tank of gas, alot of guys including myself like to have the tank full to help hold the front end down.
The v-2's have a torque advantage below 5500 rpms, after that all the later model I-4 literbikes make ATLEAST 90% of their peak torque from 5500 Rpms up. I have no problem with the RC, in fact, with a set of Sato slipons,they are one of the best sounding bikes of all time Imo, alot of bark just not alot of bite, mabee thats one of the reasons why Honda gave up on it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


Back
Top