HONDA buying Polaris?

Honda has had prototype snowmobiles for several years now, they just have yet to put one into production. Snowtech has talked about them before.
 
yamaholic22 said:
That is not necessarily true by any means that four strokes are the way of the future. That is YAMAHA's solution to all the new emissions regulations and it only made sense from a company at the forefront of performance four-stroke engine technology. However, bombardier/rotax/evinrude/can am has STRONG two-stroke technology and is using highly-developed electronics and sensors to make their two strokes meet emissions, and are doing it at much lighter weight and virtually no cost penalty over the four strokes. And this is still all without a form of e-tec on the sleds. NO LAW is EVER going to state that all vehicles of any sort must be four stroke or two stroke or rotary or diesel or any other engine type, they will simply have emission standards, possible fuel consumption minimums, CO2 emissions regulations, NOx emissions regulations, etc, and it will be the job of each individual manufacturer to decide what solution method will provide the best balance between profitability, dependablity and feasibility. That is how it is now, and with the more stringent emissions in the future that is still how it will be.
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I would have to respectfully dissagree - take a look around at ATV's, watercraft, dirt bikes, road bikes, most out boards, the list goes on - everything is going 4 stroke - the only reason you don't see more of it is because everyone else is so far behind Yamaha in the technology - SEA DOO'S watercraft have 200 to 300cc more displacement than Yamaha's in order to get the same or near same power - most of the manufacturers have to boost the 4 strokes to get power - the SDI technology is nothing more than a band aid for the emmision standards - it has been proven not to work in big displacment 2 strokes - the SDI 1000 is the perfect example - that motor was nothing short of a nightmare for Ski Doo - they finally got it running right, then dropped it - if you really do your homework on that motor, you will find that it does not meet emmission standards when it is running at the correct RPM - they were over revved from the factory to meet the standards - I can steer you to posts on Doo Talk, from dealers, to back that statement up - Honda is one of the only manufactures that has the same 4 stroke technology that Yamaha has and they both gained that knowledge from their motorcycle line - something Ski Doo does not have - Ski Doo just came out this year with a 4 stroke 450cc quad that can finally compete with Yamaha and Honda - this shows that they are working on 4 strokes - I'll take a five dollar side bet with ya on this subject and re-visit if five years from now!!! LOL ;)!
 
Octane said:
It will never happen. Last year when the Cat Jag Z1R came out, Cat said that they tried every 4-stroke engine that Suzuki makes (including the Gixxer motor) and that none of them worked well in a snowmobile, so Cat designed their own 4-stroke and had Suzuki build it.
Other than Yamaha, the whole rest of the industry is going to try to sell us on twins because they are less expensive to manufacture.
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i dont buy it if yamaha can make a 1000 cc four work in a sled you really believe suzuki cant. i personally think suzuki would'nt share the technology kinda like when they partnered up with kawi but would'nt give up the sport bike or dirt bike ideas. which turned out to be very short lived.
 
jr_amsoil said:
maybe the reason behond all the honda dealers ar dropping cat cause they have to make room for some honda sleds on the floor. had a dealer in town that just got rid of cat. i'll have to go and ask him if he knows much about them.
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I heard somewhere that Honda is starting to tell some dealers that they can only deal Honda products or they will not be allowed to deal Honda. Why and which dealers I don't know.
 
yammiman said:
Honda is one of the only manufactures that has the same 4 stroke technology that Yamaha has and they both gained that knowledge from their motorcycle line
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Honda doesnt have the same level of 4-stroke engine technology. Honda is using single overhead cam (what they call, "unicam"), 4 valve per cylinder engines whereas Yamaha is using dual overhead cam, 5 valve per cylinder engines. DOHC is a much more efficient, more reliable design because it uses fewer moving parts, so there is less rolling resistance (because there is less weight in the valvetrain that is moving) and you get more power. Also, with fewer moving parts in theory it is less likely that something will break.
Also, 5 valves per cylinder breath better than do 4 valves per cylinder.
Also, Honda has had their fair share of issues with their 4-stroke dirtbike motors. Those engines are known for being, "valve eaters" and anyone who races a CRF or a TRX450R is well acquainted with adjusting valves, because Hondas require them frequently.
In comparison, Yamaha's YZF and YFZ 450s are known for being absolutely bulletproof.
Id love to see Honda buy out Polaris and Suzuki buy out Cat and for these 3 compainies to constantly try to one-up each other just like they do in the motorcycle and ATV market, but Im honestly not holding my breath.
Every year this rumor about Honda building sleds comes back up and every year it turns out to be nothing more than internet BS and pure speculation. I have a feeling that this is the case once again this year.
 
Kind of off topic but.......

Yamaha has switched back to 4 valves per cylinder on the YZF R1 motorcycles. Before that, they were 5 valves per cylinder. Yamaha now says that they can make more power with 4 valves per cylinder, although before they claimed that 5 valves per cylinder made more power. I wouldn't be surprised if the next generation Apex motor has 4 valves per cylinder.


I personally hope we can choose between 2 strokes and 4 strokes for years to come. I know the 4 strokes have come a long ways but even most of the 4 stroke guys will admit that the Apex MTX is a handful off trail in hard/semi-setup snow, and if there is 200 pound guys that can't handle the Apex off trail in those conditions, there's no way I can handle it being 170 pounds. I have not rode the Apex MTX or the Nytro MTX, but I'm hoping that when I get to demo the Nytro MTX that it isn't too heavy otherwise it's Dragon RMK 800 for me. :bash:
 
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Octane said:
Honda doesnt have the same level of 4-stroke engine technology. Honda is using single overhead cam (what they call, "unicam"), 4 valve per cylinder engines whereas Yamaha is using dual overhead cam, 5 valve per cylinder engines. DOHC is a much more efficient, more reliable design because it uses fewer moving parts, so there is less rolling resistance (because there is less weight in the valvetrain that is moving) and you get more power. Also, with fewer moving parts in theory it is less likely that something will break.
Also, 5 valves per cylinder breath better than do 4 valves per cylinder.
Also, Honda has had their fair share of issues with their 4-stroke dirtbike motors. Those engines are known for being, "valve eaters" and anyone who races a CRF or a TRX450R is well acquainted with adjusting valves, because Hondas require them frequently.
In comparison, Yamaha's YZF and YFZ 450s are known for being absolutely bulletproof.
Id love to see Honda buy out Polaris and Suzuki buy out Cat and for these 3 compainies to constantly try to one-up each other just like they do in the motorcycle and ATV market, but Im honestly not holding my breath.
Every year this rumor about Honda building sleds comes back up and every year it turns out to be nothing more than internet BS and pure speculation. I have a feeling that this is the case once again this year.
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Not to get off topic here, but this seems to just be becoming a yamaha spokesman forum. I have a YFZ 450, and believe me they are not bulletproof. Strong motors yes, and the best power to weight out there last I knew, but not bulletproof. Up until 2007 they had a HUGE oiling flaw from the factory where both connecting rod bearings did not get enough (or any) oil and the wrist pin would weld to the upper bearing or the rod would weld itself to the crank. A HUGE flaw that luckily I found a solution for before it ate my engine. Took them four years but they finally addressed it on the new ones. Every company has issues that get out the door sometimes, its frequency and how they address it that matters. Honda and Yamaha both build some pretty awesome machinery. Japanese R&D is a little different than in the states.
 
blue missile said:
i dont buy it if yamaha can make a 1000 cc four work in a sled you really believe suzuki cant. i personally think suzuki would'nt share the technology kinda like when they partnered up with kawi but would'nt give up the sport bike or dirt bike ideas. which turned out to be very short lived.
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He's right. They looked at putting one of the bike engines in it as yamaha did but decided they could do just as well with bigger displacement, lower rpms which meant more torque and no gear reduction. Counter balancing shaft to control vibes.
 
......Honda doesnt have the same level of 4-stroke engine technology......

My point was that Honda is Yamaha's main competition in the 4 stroke motorcycle and ATV arena - my over all point is that it is just a matter of time and the only 2 strokes will be on chainsaws - the only thing I can think of that could not be done with a 4 stroke or an electric motor!!
 
yamaholic22 said:
Not to get off topic here, but this seems to just be becoming a yamaha spokesman forum. I have a YFZ 450, and believe me they are not bulletproof. Strong motors yes, and the best power to weight out there last I knew, but not bulletproof. Up until 2007 they had a HUGE oiling flaw from the factory where both connecting rod bearings did not get enough (or any) oil and the wrist pin would weld to the upper bearing or the rod would weld itself to the crank. A HUGE flaw that luckily I found a solution for before it ate my engine. Took them four years but they finally addressed it on the new ones. Every company has issues that get out the door sometimes, its frequency and how they address it that matters. Honda and Yamaha both build some pretty awesome machinery. Japanese R&D is a little different than in the states.
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Im not saying that Yamaha's 4-strokes never, ever fail, but its a pretty rare occurance and more often than not you can chalk it up to owner abuse.
Im also not saying that Honda couldnt build a great 4-stroke sled.
However, I welcome you to spend some time on www.thumpertalk.com and just read some of the threads on there. Honda's valvetrain issues are well documented. Then go read some of the threads in the YZF sections. Read about the people who have YZ 400/426/450s that have several years of racing on those bikes and havent had to even so much as adjust the valves. Change the oil often, clean the air filter after every ride and they just about run forever.
There seems to be a peception that Honda is the best at everything they do and that Honda could start making sleds and instantly be a leader. I like Honda (I maintain my yard with a Honda Harmony II walkbehind mower and a Honda 25cc trimmer and they have performed flawlessly for me in anything ranging from 95 degrees in the middle of summer to 35 degrees in the fall when Im mulching leaves) and Id love to see them start making sleds, but IMO they arent the end-all, be-all that a lot of people hype them up to be.
 
yamaholic22 said:
He's right. They looked at putting one of the bike engines in it as yamaha did but decided they could do just as well with bigger displacement, lower rpms which meant more torque and no gear reduction. Counter balancing shaft to control vibes.
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When I first read that comment by Arctic Cat I was kinda like, "what???". I mean, Suzuki has been downright dominant in superbike racing with the GSX-Rs and the Hayabusa is one of the fastest bikes there is. Suzuki knows how to build very powerful 4-stroke engines and I would say they could match Yamaha in terms of engine technology.
I do see some sense in wanting the torque of a big twin and not needing a gear reducer, but I think more than anything it was an issue of cost.
Cat doesnt have deep pockets like Yamaha has and Im sure they looked at the cost of manufacturing 4-cylinder engines and decided to spend half as much and just make twins.
 
Octane said:
IMO they arent the end-all, be-all that a lot of people hype them up to be.
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But same goes for Yamaha. I could nit pick at Yamaha issues too but I wont cause I know they happen. I stand by both cause there top dogs in alot of their industrys and both have served me well since about 6yrs old. When you mass produce the amount of products these 2 companys do your gunna have issues, no company is perfect. Plus Ive read on CRFSONLY.com its mostly the CRF250 eating up the valves/seats, not so much the 450's. Alot of people dont understand that these 250-450 4 strokes take more maintence than a 2 stroke to keep them going. If owned one Id change the oil every 2 rides MAX but Ill stick with my whiny 250 2 smoke.

GSXR is overrated everyone wants one, has, or just buys it cause what they see on TV is what there getting.
Busa is no longer top dog, Kawa took that position away for now.
 
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:offtopic: How far off topic can we get guys !!! I mean it is but it isn't I guess ? The future of engines in snowmobiles is a topic that can just keep going...and going...and going....... It is everyone's OPINION !!!!! unless you work for polaris,ski-doo,arctic cat........we already know yamaha's stance.
:postwhore
In just four stroke vs. two stroke dirt bikes/quads - the advantage is all in the power pulses of a foustroke that allows them to "hook up" (better traction) ALOT better than a 2-stroke (spinning ALL the time !) and there is really no weight penalty now ie: technology. Doesn't really have ANYTHING to do with emmisions, it just works better for MOST riders(and they got power) so it makes most people better riders/racers. BUT -bikes and quads put ALOT more of thier power to the wheels (driveline efficiency) vs. a snowmobile !!! So the difference in that power pulse of a four stroke vs. two stroke snowmobile is a little different. If the new Fx nytro is going to do what the 98' YZF400F did to the motocross world BRING IT ON!!!!! Imagine a honda/polaris motocross morphed sled like the FX nytro-but even lighter ??? THAT WOULD TURN THE SNOWMOBILE WORLD UPSIDE-DOWN !! Don't get me wrong-I WANT to ride a FX NYTRO this year - anybody getting one that will want to go riding?? I LOVE the two-strokes still - but like I said-bring on the future chassis/engine technology , if it WORKS better, people will buy it, emmisions aside - RIGHT !!!!! Maybe this is a little off topic too!!!!-oh well.
-Matt
 
This whole thread is about opinions and predictions, whats wrong with posting your opinions as long as everyone keeps there cool?

I really cant see any of the 4 Stroke Sled makers dropping too much more weight in the future WITHOUT increasing the price of these sleds even more.

BTW its POWERBAND not powerpulse
 
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No- I am talking about "power pulses" that allows the better traction on a dirt bike/quad on a four-cycle motor. you-know , it fires every-other revolution vs. a two-stroke that fires every revolution ???? Get my meaning??? Its a difference you can see on the race track with bikes-even with the novices. The four-strokes are hooking up (250's-450's) vs. the two-strokes which are spinning all the time and not hooking up as well.
Yes, Four-strokes have a WAY different "power band" also with much more low end/mid-rage grunt than most two-strokes, But the numbers (lb./ft.) of torque is not HUGE compaired to the two-stroke, just in a different area.
Look how long it took for Honda ,Kaw,suzuki to have a full line of 4-stroke MX bikes ?? Yamaha pioneered them, or took the chance anyway, now look-everybody has them and are better in many ways...
Price of sleds ?????? Holy $h!t - they are already very high !!!!!!
"you gotta pay to play" never so true now-a-days !!- eh?
-Matt
 
MSASRX said:
No- I am talking about "power pulses" that allows the better traction on a dirt bike/quad on a four-cycle motor. you-know , it fires every-other revolution vs. a two-stroke that fires every revolution ???? Get my meaning??? Its a difference you can see on the race track with bikes-even with the novices. The four-strokes are hooking up (250's-450's) vs. the two-strokes which are spinning all the time and not hooking up as well.
Yes, Four-strokes have a WAY different "power band" also with much more low end/mid-rage grunt than most two-strokes, But the numbers (lb./ft.) of torque is not HUGE compaired to the two-stroke, just in a different area.
Look how long it took for Honda ,Kaw,suzuki to have a full line of 4-stroke MX bikes ?? Yamaha pioneered them, or took the chance anyway, now look-everybody has them and are better in many ways...
Price of sleds ?????? Holy $h!t - they are already very high !!!!!!
"you gotta pay to play" never so true now-a-days !!- eh?
-Matt
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I got ya now, thanks for explaining. Yamaha being the ground breaker for the new 4 stroke MX/Quads, I diff. agree 100%. Prices of new sleds/powersports nowadays is to the point that Ill never buy new and I could afford a new Apex and/or Nytro. But Im the kinda guy that rather have more toys than just 1 or 2 that I spent 11g's on each. So far my toy collection consist of 07 Silverado Z71(Leased), 7X16 Enclosed trailer, 01 SRX, 02 Viper/ExpertX, 00 CR250, and a bad a** go kart in the works. So if I were to buy 2 new heavy thumper sleds thats about all Id have besides my old 97 F-150 and open 2 place. Sorry but IMO the fun factor doesnt change when you have a more expensive OR newer toy. I still tear it up on my dads first mini-bike ever, 1969 Honda Mini Trail(50cc) and have a blast doing it.
 
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........Sorry but IMO the fun factor doesnt change when you have a more expensive OR newer toy.........

I'm getting off topic, but I like that statement!!! - that is why I still have my SRX's, classic cars, and looking at restoring my old Tahoe!!!! - Oh, and I almost forgot, an old V-Max 4!!! - hard to beat the fun factor of the old stuff!! (maybe that is why I've stayed married for 25 years!) LOL
 
ExpertXViper and Yammiman - totally agree 100% !
Everytime I still ride my dad's ol' 97' 700 SX -I'm grinnin ear-to-ear !!! -OR
When I still had my old 80' SRX (before I sold it to Hman) that thing was FUN to run around the lake on (and supprise some people too !!!)
Yammiman - do you mean that white 2-door tahoe ?? What kinda muscle cars ya got??
 
I agree that the new stuff isnt all that the magazines brag it up to be.
I could have just as much fun on something old like the '90 Phazer II that I used to have as I could on any new sled.
Some people feel the need to always have a new, cool sled.
I doubt I will be buying a new sled any time soon. I just couldnt see spending $10,000-$12,000 on something I only use a few months out of the year.
You know what they say, "I spend money I dont have, on things I dont need, to impress people I dont know."
My plan is to eventually find a nice Yamaha 4-stroke for $3,000-$4,000. Right now Im saving up for a new truck, but once the new truck is paid I will seriously start looking at getting another Yamaha.
$6500 for a new Phazer isnt too bad, but I couldnt justify spending $8,000+ on a sled. I know I would be kicking myself as Im paying month after month of sled payments while the sled sits in the garage collecting dust 9 months out of the year.
 
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