2009 Sleds

[jaydaniels]

I copied this from a blog on the yamaha-canada website. Can't wait to see what they have in store this year.

"We have received our first 09 prototype here at YMCA which we need to do some additional photography with and get the hole-shot on some new accessories development. And yes it is a very cool looking sled, but not what you’re thinking!"

http://snowmobiles.yamahablogs.ca/2007/12/04/an-extra-50-lbs-of-what/

 

[Bakemono]

Yeah, it will be interesting. Everyone is predicting they will turbocharge the Apex, but I personally think they will come out with something that is in the 100-hp range. Something to bridge the gap between the Phazer and the RS Vector.
We will just have to wait and see. We should know what Yamaha has planned for '09 in about 5 weeks.

 

[horkn]

i wouldnt doubt a phazer chassis'd 700 (or maybe 2 450cc yzf450 jugs making a 900 twin) or so twin might come out.

they need a tweener for the phazer and nytro. However, a 136" nytro with a taller seat, and other 2nd year tweaks just might persuade me to buy new again...

so might a super or turbocharged apex in 136"

also, yami needs to efi the vector/ ventures.

 

[BlueIronRanger]

I would love to see a 100hp phazer. It wouldn't take much to bring the displacement up to around 650cc which would be needed to gain 20hp without reving it higher yet with NO weight gain. Hell, call it the Exciter. If there is no ~100hp sled for 2009 I'll be looking for a leftover 08' Phazer Mtn.

 

[Exciter570]

My prediction: the apex will either be remodeled or disappear and be replaced by a 170-180hp sled, some have hinted at that the SRX name will be used. The days that Yamaha makes a sled design last 10 years are gone.

I don't see another sled like the phazer or nytro being introduced, they have that ditch banger class well covered with both those sleds.

What I would like them to do is revamp the Genesis150 motor to add another 20hp and put it in a shell that has more fit and finish than the Apex has. The exposed and raised handle bars and "boss" type seat just don't do anything for me. I'm not a ditch banger, I don't pretend to be, I don't want to be. Would be nice to see the finishing touches Yamaha has been so well reknowned for to come back.

 

[Bakemono]

i wouldnt doubt a phazer chassis'd 700 (or maybe 2 450cc yzf450 jugs making a 900 twin) or so twin might come out.

I dont think you will see that happen. Yamaha has already said that they tried putting 2 450s together and that they ran into too many problems with vibration.

 

[marq]

also, yami needs to efi the vector/ ventures.

I did some checking on the Yamaha Blog, and can't find the information at the moment... but I specifically remember Chris mentioning in the blog that he talked to someone about why the 120 motor hasn't received fuel injection, and the answer that was given was that the gains weren't big enough to justify making the change (from a corporate bottom line perspective).

 

[horkn]

I dont think you will see that happen. Yamaha has already said that they tried putting 2 450s together and that they ran into too many problems with vibration.

Yeah, when I demo'd the phazer FX last year, one of the Yami guys came over and wanted my impression. I told him I liked it, but it needed more HP. I told the guy that I know the phazer is 2 yzf250 cylinders, so why not use 2 yzf450 jugs? He said vibration was the reason, and that for next year I would be happy with what they did. I questioned if they would take the vector mill and make a ditch banger type sled. He knew I was onto him, so he just smiled. That was in early Feb, at cruiserfest, way before the new models are announced for the coming season.

I think they could easily make a 700cc variant and not run into vibration issues, or work out a vibration damper of some sort to combat that, and make the 900 twin. a counterbalancer would be a lot less $$ of R&D than a new cylinder size of 350cc's but if they plan on a yzf350 anyway (no clue, but to me it sounds logical witha huge step from the 250f to the 450f dirt bikes) then that might be the direction.

We shall see. I will pick the Yami guys brains this year again, like I always do.


You know, with Yami's secret test facility in Minocqua/ rhinelander area, I see test mules from time to time on the trail during the winter that are without question a yamaha, but are def not anything that is currently produced. Those guys never stop, because they dont want to be asked questions though.

 

[horkn]

I did some checking on the Yamaha Blog, and can't find the information at the moment... but I specifically remember Chris mentioning in the blog that he talked to someone about why the 120 motor hasn't received fuel injection, and the answer that was given was that the gains weren't big enough to justify making the change (from a corporate bottom line perspective).

maybe in the past, but now that the Nytro is out with EFI it will be added.

now it is just a parts bin thing....and much more prone to happening.

 

[Maddogs700srx]

Heres my .02.

Nytro=136" Nytro with an overall refinement in the nytro line up.

Vector= Nytro Motor will find its way into this chassis in some form

Apex= Gone...replaced with a new 165ish HP sled.

Phaser= No major changes. Just some color choices.

Now the big one.....I still think at some point there is a chance Yamaha will build a clean 2-Stroke again. It seems 2-Stroke is making a slight come back in the MX scene as well as the boating scene.

I still believe that 4-Stroke is the future.....but I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[horkn]

if yamaha makes a new 2 stroke sled I will be more than amazed.

I think it is a "Never gonna happen" thing.

 

[Groovetastic]

I can see a few years down the road when everyone else starts switching to 4 strokes yamaha will come out with its DI system on a 2. It would be in limited use though because most would be reluctant to buy after hearing about the constant troubles of the BRP version.

But if the emission regulations tighten up some more its probably not going to happen.

 

[Bakemono]

I dont see Yamaha coming out with a clean 2-stroke either. They have way too much invested in the 4-stroke technology to go back to making a 2-stroke.
Also, all of Yamaha's current chassis are purposly designed for 4-strokes. They all are designed to have the carbs in the nose of the sled and the exhaust going straight out the back and under the seat.
That means they would have to design a whole new engine and a new chassis. IMO, thats too much to invest in something that is a dying breed. Like it or not, 2-strokes are on their way out. The EPA is going to make sure of that.

 

[yamaholic22]

I dont see Yamaha coming out with a clean 2-stroke either. They have way too much invested in the 4-stroke technology to go back to making a 2-stroke.
Also, all of Yamaha's current chassis are purposly designed for 4-strokes. They all are designed to have the carbs in the nose of the sled and the exhaust going straight out the back and under the seat.
That means they would have to design a whole new engine and a new chassis. IMO, thats too much to invest in something that is a dying breed. Like it or not, 2-strokes are on their way out. The EPA is going to make sure of that.

You guys are right, Yamaha will not be coming out with a new two-stroke anytime in the near future. They came to a fork in the road that forced them to choose between two and four stroke, and because of their tremendous experience in high power small four strokes, the decision to go with four strokes was made. That was and is YAMAHA's answer to the EPA regulations. However, I completely disagree with the fact that two strokes are a dying breed, and that the EPA will make sure to weed them out. The EPA doesn't care WHAT type of mill is being used in any vehicle that is regulated, they ONLY care that that vehicle meets the regulations set forth for that area of the market. Everyone said that two strokes wouldn't make it this long, but they are, and with flying colors. Two strokes can be made every bit as clean as four strokes in most areas, and in some areas can even do better (such as in hydrocarbon emissions) when properly calibrated. Their are many ways to reach the same end goal, and that is exactly what is going to happen in the future, and is exactly what has happened up to this point. To simply state that the two strokes are done for is a tremendous misunderstanding of the reality.

 

[horkn]

Yamaholic, the EPA does hate 2 strokes. And Yes in some cases a 2 stroke is cleaner than a 4 stroke.

case in point, the Mid 90's direct Injection 2 stroke 500cc v twin bimota V-due street bike,
even though it was super clean due to the DI, the EPA would not grant it street legal, basically killing Bimota since it had invested so much $$ in the hopeful sales of V due's in the US.

Sleds can get away with it (for now) because they are an off Hwy vehicle, and the amount of sleds out there is so minute in comparison to cars on the road.

 

[yamaholic22]

I never said anything about how the EPA "feels" about two strokes. Three guys there could love them, 10 could hate them, who the heck knows. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter. If a manufacturer has documented proof of emissions testing from a federally-recognized independent emissions tester/calibrator such as SwRI (Southwest Research, they do all of our emissions testing machine calibration for John Deere Power Systems) then they can NOT be denied legal registration ability. Just because a vehicle had DI doesn't mean it was clean enough to meet minimum emission regulations. Or there is the possibility that it was held up in some other area of becoming legal to register. Yes the government interferes a lot with what is going on in the industry, a TON as a matter of fact. But if a vehicle meets minimum emissions regulations, then it can not be blocked simply because someone doesn't like the engine configuration. An appeal would take care of that in a real hurry. Not trying to start anything here just trying to explain my point of view on the matter.

 

[yamaholic22]

At UW-Madison as a competitor in the Clean Snowmobile Challenge I also got the opportunity to work with several different sectors of industry as well as government, including the EPA. The EPA was very interested in what we were personally doing because in many ways we provided the next step to the industry from an emissions point of view, as well as for sound emissions and fuel economy. (By the way, fuel economy regulations are on the horizon as well, and are already being examined and finalized for on-road vehicles). We helped differentiate between what is feasible and what isn't, and how much potential there really is with different available (and completely new) technologies. EPA regs were a HUGE driving force behind what we were doing, and we were WAY ahead of the game in that department, as most engine manufacturers at this point are doing emissions calibration and testing for engine designs 4-7 years out. Diesel manufacturers are basically done calibrating for Tier 4 off-road emissions, etc. All of this work is done far ahead of a product release date, and all manufacturers look at a variety of different possibilities to meet the requirements. If you meet the EPA regs, the door is open.

 

[horkn]

Yeah, I see your point, but it has been well noted that Bimotas demise was linkeddirectly to the EPA, and the Euro version of it not alllowing the 2 stroke powered bike to be street legal. Exactly how much the US EPA had to do with it, I dunno. But if you buy a BMW in Germany (or Ferrari in Italy- et al), and have it shipped here, you need to have the emissions system changed to US specs before it is road legal. Euro specs are apparently more stringent, now, but you used to have to do this. A family friend did this in germany, bought the m3 there, and had to get a retro fit exhaust on it to meet US emission standards. granted this was a few years ago, but still.

Funny thing is Bimota used the DI tech that is still currently used on scooters, applied it to a big bike, and although it was clean, it was given the no go.

 

[Bakemono]

Yamaholic, say what you want, but 2-strokes are on borrowed time. The fatal flaw that 2-strokes will never, ever be able to get away from is their total loss lubrication system. That makes them inherintly dirty engines.
Ponder this: if DI 2-strokes are so much better, why are almost all small industrial engines nowdays 4-strokes? Why are all cars and trucks 4-strokes? Why are all ATVs 4-strokes? Why are almost all motorcycles 4-strokes? If DI is so great, why go with a 4-stroke engine that is heavier, more comlicated, less powerful and more expensive to manufacture?
I understand you point, but if DI 2-strokes are so much better, why is just about everything making the switch to a 4-stroke?

 

[ExpertXViper]

Holic now you got the KNOWITALLS going again. Dont bother wasting your time explaining yourself, its a lost cause esp. with the tool thats posted above this. I agree with you 100% Holic that 2 strokes arent going any where for a long while esp. in sleds, dirt bikes, lawn equip., generators, etc. But theres always someone out there thats going to disagree and more and more I see it being Bakeposer cause he knows everything about everything.