Methyl Ethyl Ketone
nosboy said:
Well you dont have to explain, but I can tell that youre dying to give someone a lecture,.. so lets hear it. Why did you put mothballs in your fuel system for racing in the 70's?
P.S. I'm 25 if that makes it easier for you to dish out this lecture. lol
This thread is a really good read, and this type of information needs to reach people that can use it to help prevent engine & fuel system damage and running issues. I haven't burned anything down yet, but I've seen plenty of the white gunk in the carbs the last few years, including plugged pilots on the SRX. Any way to sticky this if the TY powers-that-be see fit?
Here is a write up I did for another forum board, concerning marine engines. This can also be pertinant to our snowmobiles.
I have noticed an increase in fuel related problems this year, which I have addressed. I wanted to pass along some of my findings. A little long on the read but maybe it is worth it. I have posted on several other forum boards also. Allan
The Problems With Ethanol
In the spring and early summer of this year (2010), we at Allan's Mobile Marine
have experienced no less than an epidemic of boat owners complaining about
ethanol related fuel problems. These problems range from poor performance
due to hard starting, rough running, hesitation, and even stalling -- to clogged up fuel filters and injectors, and also gummed up carburetors. In addition, more and more customers are continuing to bring their boats in for repairs for the same symptoms.
In the meanwhile, we have spent many hours researching this new dilemma
for our valued customers. Besides reading much material on the subject, we have spoken at length with officials at Mercruiser Marine and Indmar, well known manufacturers of marine engines. We have also consulted with personnel at oil and gasoline distributors, including one terminal where ethanol is actually blended with fuel. And last but not least, we have consulted with personnel with the manufacturers of Sea Foam and Marine Sta-bil which are special stabilizers for ethanol gasoline.
After doing the research and collecting facts and opinions from many different
sources, we have come to realize there are several common sense questions
that need to be answered. The following is a brief overview of these issues:
Why is ethanol just now becoming such a huge problem?
Prior to 2009, ethanol was not in all the fuel we use in many regions of the
United States. However, in the summer and fall of that year -- and particularly in the first six months of this year -- all the gasoline distributors began converting their stations over to ethanol fuels. Also, bear in mind that, thanks to our politicians, there is no notification required by law unless more than ten percent of ethanol is added to fuel. Even premium gas now has ethanol.
Unsuspecting boat owners purchased this ethanol blended fuel and stored
their boats for the winter. As it turns out, vehicles which sit for long periods of time, such as boats, lawn mowers, weed eaters, tractors etc are more
susceptible to ethanol problems.
The reason is as follows:
Ethanol is a magnet for water. It attaches itself to water, whether from the
bottom of the tank where natural condensation has occurred, or even from the air in the tank. Normally, water falls to the bottom where it is out of harms way until it reaches an unsafe level. However, ethanol actually “pulls” the moisture out of the air into the gasoline and suspends this water in the fuel, contaminating the whole tank. Being suspended in the fuel, the engine is then burning a mixture of gasoline and water -- all the time. Eventually, the ethanol separates from the gasoline (phase separation) and falls to the bottom of the tank still attached to the water, forming a “glob” of sticky material. When this substance accumulates high enough in the tank, then the engine is drawing in pure ethanol and water -- stalling the engine.
Cars and trucks are generally used every day, and therefore, use up the
ethanol fuel in a more timely fashion, giving it less time to cause problems.
However, be sure it is in fact accumulating moisture in those tanks as well over a longer period of time, and if allowed to accumulate, water can wreak havoc on the entire fuel system.
Another potential problem exists with the gas stations:
Bear in mind that ethanol is very corrosive and attacks aluminum and
fiberglass tanks. It also attacks rubber fuel lines and other fuel system
components unless they were manufactured specifically for use with ethanol.
According to the oil and gas distributors we spoke with, they cleaned their station tanks before adding ethanol fuels. However, it is true that some station owners did not, and as a result, the new ethanol fuels scrubbed and scoured their tanks free of old rust and accumulated debris. Then this loosened material actually went into many vehicles causing much damage. We know of one person whom this has already happened to, and reports of many others.
It is also noteworthy to mention that, due to the problems with ethanol, the oil companies refuse to allow ethanol fuels to be pumped in their main pipelines. They insist it be blended at the terminals where trucks are loaded for shipment to gas stations. It is not good for the oil companies -- but it is fine for our vehicles.
Another potential problem with gas stations is the fact that whereas ethanol is separating from fuel and collecting moister in our vehicles, it is also happening in the tanks at the gas stations -- a fact you won’t hear much about. However, it is common sense, as the same conditions exist in those underground tanks as does in vehicle tanks. As long as the station owners are vigilant and check their tanks on a frequent basis, and then pump out any ethanol and water collected on the bottom, then perhaps all will be well. However, when left to accumulate to a certain level, a concentration of water and ethanol is pumped into vehicles, again causing much harm. One station attendant at a large Exxon station confided they must check their tanks every day because of this very problem.
Other harmful effects of ethanol.
While the purpose of ethanol is supposedly to lessen our dependence on
foreign oil, and since it burns more cleanly due to its plant (non petroleum)
origins, it is also used as a less expensive method of boosting gasoline octane. When the ethanol separates from gasoline, then the fuel looses its octane rating, causing pinging or spark knocking in engines, again causing potential harm. Also, ethanol is a dry fuel in that it scours the oil film from cylinder walls, causing piston rings and other components to wear prematurely. Reports of ethanol damage to engines are being made more frequently, and lawsuits are becoming more common. A search on the internet for ethanol problems will give pause for serious reflection. However, beware there are some websites that give false information such as one which states that vehicles manufactured since 1970 can safely use ethanol. Don’t believe it -- as experience has proven otherwise.
What can I do about the problem with ethanol?
Generally speaking, the gasoline distributors have left a few stores scattered
around that still have non-ethanol fuel.
You should immediately try and locate an ethanol free store in your area and
use it in everything you own -- especially those vehicles that sit idle for long periods of time. It would be wise to call a few gasoline distributors in your area and they will advise you which of their stores have non-ethanol gas. The station attendants often do not know for sure, since it may not be posted on the pumps.
Secondly, you should get a can of Sea Foam or the new Marine Sta-bil and
put it in every vehicle. (Sea Foam can be found at automotive parts stores,
Super Wal-Marts, and marine dealers. Marine Sta-bil can be found at marine
dealers and some parts stores.) This will help disperse the water already
accumulated in the tank and help to make it burn with minimal harmful effects.
These special stabilizers literally take the water away from the ethanol by
isolating the water molecules. They also have cleaning agents and emulsifiers to
liquefy the gum and varnish already formed in the system. If problems still persist you will have to have your tank cleaned and new filters installed. By the way, the stabilizers used in the past, including regular Sta-bil, have only a minimal effect with ethanol fuels.
If you must use ethanol gasoline in your boat or other vehicles that are idle
for long periods of time, you will have to use one of these stabilizers in every tank of gas -- or else pay someone to remedy the inevitable problems which will occur.
According to Sea Foam, for your everyday car or truck, you should use a can
of their stabilizer in your fuel tank every 3,000 or 4,000 miles. This will ensure
the moisture and phase separation will be reduced to a minimum, thereby
preventing or minimizing any long term ill effects.
Another point to be made is ethanol causes poor gas mileage, especially when phase separation occurs. We have found that a tank full of non-ethanol
fuel and a can of one of these special stabilizers will restore fuel economy and give a noticeable increase in performance.
You will probably be interested in knowing there are at least three
contenders for the best treatments for ethanol gasoline. The following websites may be helpful. Sea Foam Marine Sta-Bil Startron.
Best of luck Allan and Lois
__________________
I have noticed an increase in fuel related problems this year, which I have addressed. I wanted to pass along some of my findings. A little long on the read but maybe it is worth it. I have posted on several other forum boards also. Allan
The Problems With Ethanol
In the spring and early summer of this year (2010), we at Allan's Mobile Marine
have experienced no less than an epidemic of boat owners complaining about
ethanol related fuel problems. These problems range from poor performance
due to hard starting, rough running, hesitation, and even stalling -- to clogged up fuel filters and injectors, and also gummed up carburetors. In addition, more and more customers are continuing to bring their boats in for repairs for the same symptoms.
In the meanwhile, we have spent many hours researching this new dilemma
for our valued customers. Besides reading much material on the subject, we have spoken at length with officials at Mercruiser Marine and Indmar, well known manufacturers of marine engines. We have also consulted with personnel at oil and gasoline distributors, including one terminal where ethanol is actually blended with fuel. And last but not least, we have consulted with personnel with the manufacturers of Sea Foam and Marine Sta-bil which are special stabilizers for ethanol gasoline.
After doing the research and collecting facts and opinions from many different
sources, we have come to realize there are several common sense questions
that need to be answered. The following is a brief overview of these issues:
Why is ethanol just now becoming such a huge problem?
Prior to 2009, ethanol was not in all the fuel we use in many regions of the
United States. However, in the summer and fall of that year -- and particularly in the first six months of this year -- all the gasoline distributors began converting their stations over to ethanol fuels. Also, bear in mind that, thanks to our politicians, there is no notification required by law unless more than ten percent of ethanol is added to fuel. Even premium gas now has ethanol.
Unsuspecting boat owners purchased this ethanol blended fuel and stored
their boats for the winter. As it turns out, vehicles which sit for long periods of time, such as boats, lawn mowers, weed eaters, tractors etc are more
susceptible to ethanol problems.
The reason is as follows:
Ethanol is a magnet for water. It attaches itself to water, whether from the
bottom of the tank where natural condensation has occurred, or even from the air in the tank. Normally, water falls to the bottom where it is out of harms way until it reaches an unsafe level. However, ethanol actually “pulls” the moisture out of the air into the gasoline and suspends this water in the fuel, contaminating the whole tank. Being suspended in the fuel, the engine is then burning a mixture of gasoline and water -- all the time. Eventually, the ethanol separates from the gasoline (phase separation) and falls to the bottom of the tank still attached to the water, forming a “glob” of sticky material. When this substance accumulates high enough in the tank, then the engine is drawing in pure ethanol and water -- stalling the engine.
Cars and trucks are generally used every day, and therefore, use up the
ethanol fuel in a more timely fashion, giving it less time to cause problems.
However, be sure it is in fact accumulating moisture in those tanks as well over a longer period of time, and if allowed to accumulate, water can wreak havoc on the entire fuel system.
Another potential problem exists with the gas stations:
Bear in mind that ethanol is very corrosive and attacks aluminum and
fiberglass tanks. It also attacks rubber fuel lines and other fuel system
components unless they were manufactured specifically for use with ethanol.
According to the oil and gas distributors we spoke with, they cleaned their station tanks before adding ethanol fuels. However, it is true that some station owners did not, and as a result, the new ethanol fuels scrubbed and scoured their tanks free of old rust and accumulated debris. Then this loosened material actually went into many vehicles causing much damage. We know of one person whom this has already happened to, and reports of many others.
It is also noteworthy to mention that, due to the problems with ethanol, the oil companies refuse to allow ethanol fuels to be pumped in their main pipelines. They insist it be blended at the terminals where trucks are loaded for shipment to gas stations. It is not good for the oil companies -- but it is fine for our vehicles.
Another potential problem with gas stations is the fact that whereas ethanol is separating from fuel and collecting moister in our vehicles, it is also happening in the tanks at the gas stations -- a fact you won’t hear much about. However, it is common sense, as the same conditions exist in those underground tanks as does in vehicle tanks. As long as the station owners are vigilant and check their tanks on a frequent basis, and then pump out any ethanol and water collected on the bottom, then perhaps all will be well. However, when left to accumulate to a certain level, a concentration of water and ethanol is pumped into vehicles, again causing much harm. One station attendant at a large Exxon station confided they must check their tanks every day because of this very problem.
Other harmful effects of ethanol.
While the purpose of ethanol is supposedly to lessen our dependence on
foreign oil, and since it burns more cleanly due to its plant (non petroleum)
origins, it is also used as a less expensive method of boosting gasoline octane. When the ethanol separates from gasoline, then the fuel looses its octane rating, causing pinging or spark knocking in engines, again causing potential harm. Also, ethanol is a dry fuel in that it scours the oil film from cylinder walls, causing piston rings and other components to wear prematurely. Reports of ethanol damage to engines are being made more frequently, and lawsuits are becoming more common. A search on the internet for ethanol problems will give pause for serious reflection. However, beware there are some websites that give false information such as one which states that vehicles manufactured since 1970 can safely use ethanol. Don’t believe it -- as experience has proven otherwise.
What can I do about the problem with ethanol?
Generally speaking, the gasoline distributors have left a few stores scattered
around that still have non-ethanol fuel.
You should immediately try and locate an ethanol free store in your area and
use it in everything you own -- especially those vehicles that sit idle for long periods of time. It would be wise to call a few gasoline distributors in your area and they will advise you which of their stores have non-ethanol gas. The station attendants often do not know for sure, since it may not be posted on the pumps.
Secondly, you should get a can of Sea Foam or the new Marine Sta-bil and
put it in every vehicle. (Sea Foam can be found at automotive parts stores,
Super Wal-Marts, and marine dealers. Marine Sta-bil can be found at marine
dealers and some parts stores.) This will help disperse the water already
accumulated in the tank and help to make it burn with minimal harmful effects.
These special stabilizers literally take the water away from the ethanol by
isolating the water molecules. They also have cleaning agents and emulsifiers to
liquefy the gum and varnish already formed in the system. If problems still persist you will have to have your tank cleaned and new filters installed. By the way, the stabilizers used in the past, including regular Sta-bil, have only a minimal effect with ethanol fuels.
If you must use ethanol gasoline in your boat or other vehicles that are idle
for long periods of time, you will have to use one of these stabilizers in every tank of gas -- or else pay someone to remedy the inevitable problems which will occur.
According to Sea Foam, for your everyday car or truck, you should use a can
of their stabilizer in your fuel tank every 3,000 or 4,000 miles. This will ensure
the moisture and phase separation will be reduced to a minimum, thereby
preventing or minimizing any long term ill effects.
Another point to be made is ethanol causes poor gas mileage, especially when phase separation occurs. We have found that a tank full of non-ethanol
fuel and a can of one of these special stabilizers will restore fuel economy and give a noticeable increase in performance.
You will probably be interested in knowing there are at least three
contenders for the best treatments for ethanol gasoline. The following websites may be helpful. Sea Foam Marine Sta-Bil Startron.
Best of luck Allan and Lois
__________________
SWEDE
New member
Good writeup there!
Excellent write up
The thing that caught my eye is that ethanol is somtimes being used to increase the octane rating in some fuels. If that is the case I wonder what octanne rating someone might be left with after the ethanol and water separate from the gas and lay in the bottom of the tank?
Madmatt
The thing that caught my eye is that ethanol is somtimes being used to increase the octane rating in some fuels. If that is the case I wonder what octanne rating someone might be left with after the ethanol and water separate from the gas and lay in the bottom of the tank?
Madmatt
2003VIPERER
New member
with everything that i have read, which is alot ,what would the reconmended jetting be to be safe from a burn down. i had a bad burndown last year due to crappy gas, would like to know a safe jetting so it doesnt happen again.
I believe the Stock setting for Yamaha's are sufficiant if the engine is completely stock. In the past I have jetted up to two sizes leaner than stock setting and have been safe. Now all of our sleds are set up to stock jets, clean carbs every year, and we run Sta bil for ethonal 1 oz per 3 gallons at every fill up. Al
Robs96max4
New member
i didn't read all the treads but you guys will have to come to Canada for your fuel.. Esso 0% not sure on the rest.. cheers
Ha ha,, you've got it also but just don't know it yet........ postings not mandatory yet on pumps....
Bluemonster2
New member
Whammy said:
Well the reg and mid are listed as "may" contain up to 5-10% ethanol but the premiem is 0. Just cleaned the carbs on my sled and there wasnt any gunk as decribed by some of the other posters. Alot of the crap gets added after we sell you guys the gas lol
bluemonster1
LIFE MEMBER ONLY ONCE!!!
I can vouch for that.My carbs are completely spotless also using Premium gas out here.but I still go thru them.I'd be afraid to put that ethanol gas in my tanks..yikes!!!
Mothballs are made from ETHER... Need I explain any further???Netefrog said:
I'm going to give you guys the ETHANOL/ METHANOL lecture pretty soon... you're starting to RILE me...
super1c
Super Moderator
nosboy said:
Dont keep us waiting, the suspense is killing me!! CCC
MikeSr
New member
Mothballs are not made from ether. Today they are made from either napthalene or paradichlorobenzene (both chemicals are ring structures). Prior to that they were made from camphor. To my knowledge they were not made from ether (a straight chain structure) at any point in time.
I buy Naptha by the 5 gallon container, I use it to clean my spray gun. I sure would not like to run it in my sled though. Al
MikeSr
New member
Naptha is ether
Well guys, the thing is you can throw around general terms like Naptha and call it Ether because it is in the same general category (although if you think back before modern day medicine, ether was used to put patients under before operating on them- not naptha).
You can lump alcohols together, i.e. methanol, ethanol, propanol, hexanol, octanol, decanol, you name the number of carbons you want to put on it, and as long as you put a hydoxyl group on the end of it, it is technically an alchohol.
You can lump napthas together. Same with waxes, oils, solvents, detergents. It is when we try to split hairs that the heated debates are going to come into play.
I graduated with a degree in chemisty in 1984 and have been a chemist for the last 26 years, but that is not to say I am an expert by any stretch. Just trying to give you guys some facts because there are a lot of other types of "experts" out there, (most of which believe there is actually a formula for gasoline).
Just one last question from a post or so back. If methanol is what is blended into gasoline, then why does every pump I have seen in the last couple years say "Contains up to 10% ethanol" instead of "Contains up to 10% methanol" ???? Come to think of it, there is a hell of a difference in polarity, which in lay man's terms equates to how much water it can absorb.
(for the curious-minded, here is a short course on alcohols: Methanol hydrogen bonds a lot better with water than ethanol. Drink methanol and go blind and die real quick like. Drink ethanol and you will die too, it's what is in beer, wine, booze, etc, but we are all going to die anyway. And just to differentiate once again, Rubbing Alcohol is isopropyl alcohol and you wouldn't want to drink that either, but it will burn in your cylinders just fine.)
Anybody out there put a can of HEET in your car's tank? Read the label. It contains alcohol(s).
Well guys, the thing is you can throw around general terms like Naptha and call it Ether because it is in the same general category (although if you think back before modern day medicine, ether was used to put patients under before operating on them- not naptha).
You can lump alcohols together, i.e. methanol, ethanol, propanol, hexanol, octanol, decanol, you name the number of carbons you want to put on it, and as long as you put a hydoxyl group on the end of it, it is technically an alchohol.
You can lump napthas together. Same with waxes, oils, solvents, detergents. It is when we try to split hairs that the heated debates are going to come into play.
I graduated with a degree in chemisty in 1984 and have been a chemist for the last 26 years, but that is not to say I am an expert by any stretch. Just trying to give you guys some facts because there are a lot of other types of "experts" out there, (most of which believe there is actually a formula for gasoline).
Just one last question from a post or so back. If methanol is what is blended into gasoline, then why does every pump I have seen in the last couple years say "Contains up to 10% ethanol" instead of "Contains up to 10% methanol" ???? Come to think of it, there is a hell of a difference in polarity, which in lay man's terms equates to how much water it can absorb.
(for the curious-minded, here is a short course on alcohols: Methanol hydrogen bonds a lot better with water than ethanol. Drink methanol and go blind and die real quick like. Drink ethanol and you will die too, it's what is in beer, wine, booze, etc, but we are all going to die anyway. And just to differentiate once again, Rubbing Alcohol is isopropyl alcohol and you wouldn't want to drink that either, but it will burn in your cylinders just fine.)
Anybody out there put a can of HEET in your car's tank? Read the label. It contains alcohol(s).
In CHICAGO,, the pump's say CONTAINS METHANOL,, Just like the BACK of the HEET label !!!! Depending on How they acquire the "alcohols",, weather it's from CORN,,, or Grain,, or Potatoes,, or SUGAR CANE,,, or GARBAGE that they throw together (blended fuels) has a relative effect on their polarities...MikeSr said: