You better REALLY watch your fuel this year!

[mrviper700]

Ethanol is NOT a hotter burning fuel. Gas is a mix of a lot of different chemicals. All other things the same (for example, like the number of chemical bonds between the carbon atoms) the higher the number of carbons in a molecule, the hotter the fuel burns. Ethanol has only two carbons, and a single bond between the two. Acteylene had two carbons just like ethanol, but has triple bonds between the two. Guess which burns hotter? Ever try welding with a tank of ethanol, or do prefer acteylene?

All things being equal, the longer the chain length ( or another way to put it is the higher the number of carbons in the chain), the hotter the fuel. Methanol with one carbon doesn't burn as hot as ethanol with two carbons and gas has a mixture of molecules with a LOT higher number of carbons.

Think about this. E-85 is 85% ethanol. It's cheaper than the lowest grade gas because why....???? Because it doesn't burn as hot. If it burned hotter than regular gas you would get better mileage than even the lowest grade of regular gas....and that .....would be a hell of a bargain.

True....the higher the ethanol content, the more water that can be absorved in the fuel. The techinical reason is called hydrogen bonding. Which is yet another reason that fuel containing ethanol doesn't burn as hot as regular gas. Water burns how well???

Hi Mikesr, so if gasoline is made up of a mix of chemicals,and the ethanol makes it burn cooler,what are they using to dilute the rest of the fuel??? because it (whatever combo the fuel is made from)evidently does burn hotter in the engine, maybe not from just the ethanol but what other chemicals is used to dilute the fuel, as the octane level is indeed lower,thus the ability to not burn is reduced and detonation arises. 2 stroke dont take to rattling the pistons well and for very long. The number of stock engine failures alone here on this site tells me the fuel is changing and the results are more heat-wrecked pistons. I also read that its formic acid from the ethanol thats causes the white/fuzz crud now found in the carbs on a usual basis. Please explain, I am always open to information. appreciate the reply.

 

[dirtjumper895]

mrviper700-

How are you determining the octane rating of E15? If I am not mistaken, E0 (regular gasoline) has octane ratings between 87&93 depending on grade. E85 has an octane rating of 102-103... (http://e85vehicles.com/e85/index.php?topic=3143.0) It just seems logical that E15 would have a higher octane rating than that of E0. Anyways good find on the legislation. I have been aware for sometime that there was a push towards higher E numbers.

 

[Sleigher]

This coming season more then ever, you better keep an eye on your jetting/piston wash as your getting even more diluted down fuel!! Youll need to jet up and mix gas for any kind of 2 stroke sled. The ethanol makes for a hotter burning fuel and this is what leads to detonation and wrecking your engine. I wouldnt be suprised to see a whole list of threads of blown up sleds here. I love these guys in office!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-...rmit-blending-more-ethanol-into-gasoline.html

Not only does ethanol reduce the yeild of power that "gasoline" fuel can achive but it also helps to burn down the rainforests in south america.
Farmers scramble to clear forest so that corn can be planted.
There is not enough land on earth to grow the corn required to fuel the engines of North america, let alone the world, with ethanol.
Ethanol was promoted by president Bush, as "green" measure against global warming and a solution to reliance on fossil fuels (which will dissappear).

Obamma is simply choosing to increase production.

I believe that the U.S was the major promotor for the introduction of enthanol as an alternative fuel source. If not the only major power to allow ethanol into the gasoline chemical solution.

Too bad. How much for a bushel of corn now anyways ?
Hey, does anyone think it will come down to a choice between eating and putting fuel in an engine ?
or will it simply be too expencive for some poeple to eat corn at all ?
How many things does corn get into these days ?

Not being trying to be a jerk here in anyway, just putting it out there.

 

[Sleigher]

Ethanol fuel is less expencive because corn trades for less on the market then oil. So a litre of gasoline may cost 1 dollar at the pumps because of the cost of the barrel of oil plus refining costs and demand for oil. Ethanol does not cost as much because the demand for it does not exist as it does for oil.
Ethanol fuel is a quality fuel for right engine application.
An engine using a power adder like a turbo could and does benefit from using ethanol fuels. I don't know the exact reason for the use of enthanol on drag cars but you can be assureed that ethanol is used in the more competative turbo drag cars. I belive it is the reduction in heat but I am not 100% sure on that.

 

[Sleigher]

I don't think that high compression engine such as the configuration used on 2 stroke engines found in snowmobile applications would benefit from the use of enthanol blended gasoline.

Compression and enthanol do not seem to mix all that well.
Ethanol does not release as much energy as gasoline does.
So its a little bit of a defeat to the purpose of using a higher compression engine.
The higher compression is meant to boost HP but the ethanol does not release as much power so HP suffers.

 

[Super Sled]

Not only does ethanol reduce the yeild of power that "gasoline" fuel can achive but it also helps to burn down the rainforests in south america.
Farmers scramble to clear forest so that corn can be planted.
There is not enough land on earth to grow the corn required to fuel the engines of North america, let alone the world, with ethanol.
Ethanol was promoted by president Bush, as "green" measure against global warming and a solution to reliance on fossil fuels (which will dissappear).

Obamma is simply choosing to increase production.

I believe that the U.S was the major promotor for the introduction of enthanol as an alternative fuel source. If not the only major power to allow ethanol into the gasoline chemical solution.

Too bad. How much for a bushel of corn now anyways ?
Hey, does anyone think it will come down to a choice between eating and putting fuel in an engine ?
or will it simply be too expencive for some poeple to eat corn at all ?
How many things does corn get into these days ?

Not being trying to be a jerk here in anyway, just putting it out there.

Not trying to start anything here Sleigher, but your conclusion is right, but with the wrong facts about Brazil.....


Yes, Brazilian rain forests are coming down quickly due to overpopulation and farming down there -- some of the land being converted to grow food, but muchto grow cash crops like those that make ethanol, not necessarily corn.


Brazil has used ethanol for decades now widespread in motor vehicles. Much more than we have no USA or Canada. Not even close. They are way ahead of us.


But they use sugar cane to create ethanol -- not corn. Its the ecology and place on the map where they are -- sugar cane grows well there and they grow a lot of it.


But sugar cane is also much more cheaply and easily converted to ethanol than corn can be. Converting corn to ethanol is a very, very costly and resource intensive process. Also, there is lots and lots of big business and political interests at play. Lots of subsidies and its been said more than once that it the world uses about as much gasoline to create an amount of ethanol as ethanol is created.


I don't know what the answer is. We do use lots of ethanol and in our larger displacement 4 stroke engines like cars it is no big deal. But it's deadly to small engines, 2 strokes, anything with a carberator with small jets.


We luckily in MN are still offered a "nonoxygenated" version of gas that can by staute contain absolutely zero ehtanol. But who knows how much longer that'll be offered to us...... It's the only thing I'll use tho for the time being.



For Trucks and cars, I certainly like the idea of not using gasoline, simply to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. I know most of it comes from Canada or the US which is fine, but I hate supporting communists in Venezuela and Terrorists in the Middle East by sending them oil money, just bad IMO.


But on the flip side I love motorized vehicles like sleds and ATV's and I'm not willing to sacrifice reliability by using any gasoline containing ethanol. It's fine for my truck, but never in my atv's, sled's, lawn tractor, snow blower, etc.



We need to reduce our dependence on gasoline, but I don't think ethanol is the answer. BTW, my parents are from South dakota and my mom owns 2 farms there. I realize how good ethanol is for the price of crops, but i'm not for using it as a gasoline substitude. I feel it's bad policy as it simply is not cost effective, nor can anybody show any correlation between using ethanol and reducing our reliance on oil at all.



And for the enviromentalists, I believe cars using e85 cause more greenhouse gasses that cars using regular gasoline.


And has anybody noticed how much more food costs now that we are putting our food supply needs in competition with our energy needs? We are paying a lot more for eveything now, and this (using ethanol as a gasoline substitute) factors in more than you think......



Oh to any farmers out there: I'm sorry for having an opinion -- and one that I can back up. I realize ethanol makes you a lot of cash, I do. But it's just bad policy in my book. My mom's brothers who are big farmers around Sioux Falls area are all ethanol fanatics, and laugh about this issue all the way to the bank......



Oh, and I'm actually pretty conservative, so please don't call me some raving liberal, or that will really cut deep........


Oh well, why can't it just snow soon so we can sled....

 

[yamalars]

I don't think that high compression engine such as the configuration used on 2 stroke engines found in snowmobile applications would benefit from the use of enthanol blended gasoline.

Compression and enthanol do not seem to mix all that well.
Ethanol does not release as much energy as gasoline does.
So its a little bit of a defeat to the purpose of using a higher compression engine.
The higher compression is meant to boost HP but the ethanol does not release as much power so HP suffers.

Well i dissagre! It makes more power with ethanol and runs cooler with high compression.
IF its a good blend with high octan. Beqause ethanol cotains oxygen. Proved that on my ported,piped RZ350.
Swapped to E85 (about 104 octan in sweden) and just rejetted (about 40% more fuel all the way)
Used a Klotz premix oil that goes with both gas and alcohol. (syntetic)
and the bike was a little sluggish at bottom end but topend was the same or better.

I then raised the compression from about 11:1 to 13,5:1 and that shore did it!
The throttle snap was like a dirtbike and it ran darn good : ) And smelled even better!

But I wont pour ethanol in my sled! It's different story to have a sled that sits
for two weeks sometimes in winterconditions! Soaking up water!
We are lucky to have 98 octan here (about the same as your 93) with no ethanol (yet).
If you have to use e10 or e15 you better watch your jetting and dont forget the needles!!

 

[yamalars]

Ethanol fuel is less expencive because corn trades for less on the market then oil. So a litre of gasoline may cost 1 dollar at the pumps because of the cost of the barrel of oil plus refining costs and demand for oil. Ethanol does not cost as much because the demand for it does not exist as it does for oil.
Ethanol fuel is a quality fuel for right engine application.
An engine using a power adder like a turbo could and does benefit from using ethanol fuels. I don't know the exact reason for the use of enthanol on drag cars but you can be assureed that ethanol is used in the more competative turbo drag cars. I belive it is the reduction in heat but I am not 100% sure on that.

Same thing as my bike! I raised the compression,they add
boost = more power and no detonation!

 

[MikeSr]

To answer Mr. Viper's question, and more.

Hi Mikesr, so if gasoline is made up of a mix of chemicals,and the ethanol makes it burn cooler,what are they using to dilute the rest of the fuel??? because it (whatever combo the fuel is made from)evidently does burn hotter in the engine, maybe not from just the ethanol but what other chemicals is used to dilute the fuel, as the octane level is indeed lower,thus the ability to not burn is reduced and detonation arises. 2 stroke dont take to rattling the pistons well and for very long. The number of stock engine failures alone here on this site tells me the fuel is changing and the results are more heat-wrecked pistons. I also read that its formic acid from the ethanol thats causes the white/fuzz crud now found in the carbs on a usual basis. Please explain, I am always open to information. appreciate the reply.

OK, I will give you guys the crash course on gas. You might find it hard to believe, but it's true. Here is why I know it to be true. The company that I work for buys a lot of solvents, and alchohols. I have been traveling to chemical companies and oil refineries more than I cared to the last 20 years. Been to Shell, Exxon (before it was Exxon-Mobil), Dow, Union Carbide (before Dow bought them out). My job is to ask questions about the process, and in doing so I have been able to ask a lot of my own questions about gas.

Here is the part you will not believe. There is no formula for gas. I repeat, there is no formula for gas. When an oil refinery is making a certain grade of chemical, there are times when the process goes a little out of control and when that happens the control board operators divert the product stream to the biggest tank by far on the grounds. And that tank is called Mo-Gas (motor gas). Same thing happens when a process is started up after a maintenance shut-down or when a production unit is switching from one grade of solvent (for example benzene, isoprene, naptha) it takes time to get the solvent they are trying to extract from the mixture coming into the unit, within specification. And until that solvent is in specification, it is DIVERTED to the MO-GAS tank.

Now imagine dozens and dozens of units in a 2,000 acre oil refinery, all trying to make different things, and when they are not running within specification, they divert to stream coming out of the unit to either another unit, or to.....MO-GAS. If you don't believe it, think about this. Go to your local hardward store and buy a gallon of mineral spirits. Costs more than a gallon of gas, right? Yes it does. Which do you think the refinery would like to make more of, Mineral Spirits, or Gas? More money in Mineral Spirits, isn't there? But when the production unit is trying to run Mineral Spirits and goes out of whack, then they have to divert the stream coming out of the unit to something far less profitable...like Gas. Sometimes to another slop tank for things like charcoal lighter fluid. Depends on what unit is trying to make what and how far out of specification it is. A refinery is a really complex operation.

Now, here is this big mother of a tank (and there are more than one) called MO-GAS, and it is nearing the top. They stir it up. A technician goes out to the tank for a sample. They run the sample in a very small engine in what is called the KNOCK-ROOM, and they get a KNOCK RATING. The rating could be anywhere, it's all over the board depending on how much of what kind of waste all the little individual production units have dumped into it. They determine the knock rating, they know how many gallons are in the MO-GAS tank, they add whatever they need to to raise the octane rating (yeah, they might even use ethanol) to whatever they have for orders at the moment (87, 89, 93, whatever). They restir the tank, get another sample, run it on small engine in the KNOCK-ROOM, and if they need to, they can add more of whatever they have a surplus of at the moment, to derive the octane they need. They certify the tank at that octane rating, and pump it off into barges, or into pipelines for distribution all over the country.

All without a formula. Amazing. Yes, there are additive packages added to certain grades at certain refineries. I was told at several different companies by several different people that typically the premium grade has the additive package no matter what the brand, so once in a while it is a good idea to get a tank full of premium of your car.

I can't tell you if the formic acid from ethanol is causing crud on the carbs. There are so many different chemicals in a gallon of gas and the concentration and compositioin changes with every full tank of MO-GAS depending on what the refinery is running that day, that I don't think anyone could pinpoint. If this crude is present running pure ethanol, then it is pretty much a no-brainer I guess.

Couple other things to make mention of. There are small piston-engine aircraft that are set up to run on ethanol and they don't have any higher incidence of engine problems or failures than their counterparts running aviation fuel. The biggest problem they are concerned with is the difference in vapor pressure of the fuel at high altitude - could cause vapor lock, which makes for an exciting time when the fan out front stops on a hot day.

One final thing. Don't think that just because you buy gas from a station advertising a certain company's name, that this gas came from that refinery. Ain't necessarily true. Just park your car outside a distribution center where the tanker trucks go to fuel up for deliveries to your favorite gas station, and the sign out front might say BRAND X, but you will see all different BRANDS on the side of the tanker trucks coming in and out.

I will be without computer access until next week, and will check back in then.

 

[mrviper700]

Interesting Mikesr, I also read last night that the ethanol is NOT added at the refinery but at the distribution centers, so if what your saying is they might use ethanol at the refinery, then someone adds it at the distribution center, could very well answer my question as to whats going on. Also about any article I go to, it clearly states boats,snowmobiles,small 2 stroke,some aircraft are not to use ethanol blended fuels.

I appreciate the response.

http://www.e0pc.com/newreality.php

 

[MikeSr]

It's everywhere

Hey no problem Mr. V.

I can't tell you for certain if they intentionally add the ethanol at the refinery or at the distribution center to get the 10 or 15 percent. Good point. I didn't think of that. What I was saying is ethanol might be one of many chemicals they could use to get the octane rating where they want it.

I was at a refinery one time, and a chemical engineer told me that a couple of guys were filling the tanks of their cars up directly from a unit where toluene was being made. And they were not just topping off their car tanks with the toluene, they were running pure toluene. Management got tipped off about this, so they pulled a fuel sample from the two guys car tanks, took it to the lab, ran what is called a Gas Chromatograph analysis on it, and gee whiz, it matched up perfectly with a known sample of pure toluene. Both guys lost their jobs then and there.

Toluene is commonly used to boost octane. Doesn't take a lot of toluene to bump the octane rating up. Back in the day, I used to spruce up the tank of one of my cars with a little slug of toluene. Took care of the pinging, and ran really sweet.

I have oversimplified in my explanation. There is a lot more to it than that. Octane is one thing, but vapor pressure is another thing. Change one, the other changes. As you know, there is summer blend and winter blend gas. The winter blend has a higher vapor pressure so that your car starts easier. That's another gimmick the oil companies pull on us. They jack the price just before winter comes and tell you it is because they are switching over to winter blend gas. All they are doing is adding more volatile chemicals to the Mo-GAS tank to get the vapor pressure higher. Then they hit you with an up-charge again in the spring, telling you they are switching over to summer-blend. It's just a giant rip-off.

 

[9801srx]

Hi Mikesr, so if gasoline is made up of a mix of chemicals,and the ethanol makes it burn cooler,what are they using to dilute the rest of the fuel??? because it (whatever combo the fuel is made from)evidently does burn hotter in the engine, maybe not from just the ethanol but what other chemicals is used to dilute the fuel, as the octane level is indeed lower,thus the ability to not burn is reduced and detonation arises. 2 stroke dont take to rattling the pistons well and for very long. The number of stock engine failures alone here on this site tells me the fuel is changing and the results are more heat-wrecked pistons. I also read that its formic acid from the ethanol thats causes the white/fuzz crud now found in the carbs on a usual basis. Please explain, I am always open to information. appreciate the reply.

mr.viper and mikesr you both make some good points but i'd like to add some info to maybe clear up some of this.as mikesr stated ethanol does burn cooler than pure gasoline it has less btu's per unit of fuel than gas and in its pure form has a octane of about 113.the problem is that as we all know ethanol absorbs water very well and very fast ,when it absorbs so much it phase seperates because the water makes it to heavy to stay in suspension in the gas.the e10 and e15 fuels still only have the same octane rating as straight gas e.g 87 e10 is the same as 87 straight gas but its made of 10% 113octane ethanol and 90%82-84 octane crap gas,and so on 89,91 .so say you fill your jetted safe for pure gas sled with fresh e10 91 octane go for a ride then park your sled for a couple weeks the ethanol sucks up all the water it can and phase seprates now your 91 octane fuel is now only 88-89 octane or lower,now combine that with the fact that ethanol contains oxygen and the fact that it requires almost half the air (oxygen) to burn as compared to pure gas ,now your jetted safe sled is dangerously lean which makes for a hotter burn(like mr.viper said)than it was with pure gas and your octane is also a couple points below what it should be which leads to deto.so now you got the receipe for a batch of squeeky pistons. so in short only use fresh e fuels from a busy station if you have to use it,if its more than a couple weeks old drain it out and burn it in your truck it wont mind, and jet your sled for the e fuels if you gotta use them or don't know what your getting.better safe than squeeky.

 

[bluemonster1]

all sounds scary to me..good luck you guys.We are still good out this way with the gas.I can only imagine what some of you will go thru when you are trail riding and have to fuel up in some small hick or out of way fuel stop..makes me cringe!!!

 

[mrviper700]

9801srx,and mikeSr, good thread,lots of reading and intelligent post, thanx again for the replys.


on the right fuel!!

 

[MikeSr]

9801SRX you make some good points

You made some very good and practical points. A couple years back I took an old sled to a mechanic after it sat all summer. I couldn't get it to fire unless I dumped gas down the cylinders and neither could he. He told me he rebuilt the carbs, put new lines on it, PLUS drained like a gallon and a half of water out of the tank to get it running. I know I didn't add it to the gas, and it had a cover on it and a good gas cap, so it must have been a heavy dose of ethanol in the fuel and then it sucked up water all summer.

 

[Madmatt]

Good thread

This is a really good thread. I run a stock piped viper S. Last year my sled was running fine....never saw the DCS light come on.....NEVER since I had owned the sled. I pulled into a gas station and I was pretty empty...put in like 8 gallons. Left the station & got back out on the trail and punched it...DCS went off immediatly. I was actually kind of excited cause I didn't even know it worked! All the way back home (about 20 miles) every time I got on it the DCS would go off. I pulled up to my garage and topped off the tank with C-12 since I had it left over from motocross season. Since I had only ridden 20 miles I couldn't have put much more than a gallon of c-12 in there. I continued on riding and never saw the DCS again for the rest of the day. Later that week I heard of two people that got gas there and blew their sleds up. Not saying it was ethanol but clearly it was bad gas at that station. Just thought it was an interesting experience.

Madmatt

 

[nosboy]

Hey no problem Mr. V.

I can't tell you for certain if they intentionally add the ethanol at the refinery or at the distribution center to get the 10 or 15 percent. Good point. I didn't think of that. What I was saying is ethanol might be one of many chemicals they could use to get the octane rating where they want it.

I was at a refinery one time, and a chemical engineer told me that a couple of guys were filling the tanks of their cars up directly from a unit where toluene was being made. And they were not just topping off their car tanks with the toluene, they were running pure toluene. Management got tipped off about this, so they pulled a fuel sample from the two guys car tanks, took it to the lab, ran what is called a Gas Chromatograph analysis on it, and gee whiz, it matched up perfectly with a known sample of pure toluene. Both guys lost their jobs then and there.

Toluene is commonly used to boost octane. Doesn't take a lot of toluene to bump the octane rating up. Back in the day, I used to spruce up the tank of one of my cars with a little slug of toluene. Took care of the pinging, and ran really sweet.

I have oversimplified in my explanation. There is a lot more to it than that. Octane is one thing, but vapor pressure is another thing. Change one, the other changes. As you know, there is summer blend and winter blend gas. The winter blend has a higher vapor pressure so that your car starts easier. That's another gimmick the oil companies pull on us. They jack the price just before winter comes and tell you it is because they are switching over to winter blend gas. All they are doing is adding more volatile chemicals to the Mo-GAS tank to get the vapor pressure higher. Then they hit you with an up-charge again in the spring, telling you they are switching over to summer-blend. It's just a giant rip-off.

I don't know how old you are,,,but,,, in the 1970's we used to throw MOTHBALLS in the gas tank before we would race.... I'll explain if I have to...

 

[nosboy]

Anhydrous Alcohol is right around 110 octane... The "fuel farms" cut your gasoline with METHYL ALCOHOL or METHANOL.. Which is considerably less !!!

 

[nosboy]

I could write a BOOK on this subject.. Lets just say,, the Illinois and Indiana corn farmers got a SCAM GOING !!!

 

[nosboy]

I prefer MEK rather than " toly" because it's EASIER to acquire ...