vipertripplexxx
New member
notice how the little guy with the sign has a skeptical look on his face?! 
The end of 2 stroke Yamaha's is here !!!
- Thread starter Automed
- Start date
Hebi
New member
Like it or not, 4-strokes are the future. The only 2-strokes that meet the emission regulations for '06 are the SDI and Powertek Doos. However, last year the SDIs had some durability issues. I personally believe that because they run those engines so lean to meet emissions that they are sacraficing durability.
I myself would much rathar have a 4-stroke. Better fuel economy, more torque, very little smoke/smell and better durability. Also no need to worry about burning down an engine due to cold temps or bad fuel.
I believe that the '05 Venom is Yamaha's last 2-stroke and anyone who rides a Yamaha 4-stroke wont miss the 2-strokes.
With the success that Yamaha has had in the past with their 4-strokes (YZF R1, YFZ450, YZ 250F/YZ 450F) they have plenty of experience to make a very successful line of 4-stroke sleds.
I also can believe that Yamaha is dumping the RX chassis in favor of something lighter. The RX served Yamaha well, but now they need to move their sleds past the novelty stage and show people why they NEED to be on a 4-stroke.
Hebi
I myself would much rathar have a 4-stroke. Better fuel economy, more torque, very little smoke/smell and better durability. Also no need to worry about burning down an engine due to cold temps or bad fuel.
I believe that the '05 Venom is Yamaha's last 2-stroke and anyone who rides a Yamaha 4-stroke wont miss the 2-strokes.
With the success that Yamaha has had in the past with their 4-strokes (YZF R1, YFZ450, YZ 250F/YZ 450F) they have plenty of experience to make a very successful line of 4-stroke sleds.
I also can believe that Yamaha is dumping the RX chassis in favor of something lighter. The RX served Yamaha well, but now they need to move their sleds past the novelty stage and show people why they NEED to be on a 4-stroke.
Hebi
vipertripplexxx
New member
It's as if he really doesn't know if he should be holding it.
opposed to this guy who looks confident and happy
Then theres the guy with the syco look, he knows he's right! 
This guy don't care 
he's my favorite!
opposed to this guy who looks confident and happy
Then theres the guy with the syco look, he knows he's right! This guy don't care he's my favorite!
n2oiroc
New member
i have no problem with 4 strokes. i would actually prefer one if they can get it to weigh no more than what my viper weighs wet and performance is as good or better.
vipertripplexxx
New member
hey hebi, I rode a couple of rx-1's, and crusin they great, tight twisty trails and I was givin that thing back ASAP, problem is andy wouldn't stop rid'in mine. Guys who are 150 pounds soakin wet notice it more than big guys. Them things are heavy.
ViperTom
New member
I rode an 05 RX-1 at the yammi demo ride in Gaylord. I loved the power in the long straights but in a tight, twisty, tree lined trail...it would be the death of me....SPLAT!
What is this constant drone about 4 strokes generating better fuel economy and more torque than 2 strokes? If you do not give the 4 stroke the advantage of more displacement/cylinders or forced induction it will not be able to generate the same amount of torque or horsepower as the 2 stroke, and a direct or semi direct injected 2 stroke that generates the same power(with less displacement) will offer better fuel economy. Give the Yamaha engineers carte blanch to create a 4 cylinder 1000cc 2 stroke with all the modern 2 stroke technolgy now available and it won't even be close. How about a nice titanium exhuast system on it to boot. If they invested that kind of coin into lightening a 2 stroke it would be incredibly light. What Yamaha wants to do is have horsepower classes in snowmobiles, not displacement catagories. How many of you out there even know what the displacement of their outboard motor is? I know I don't. What better way to reduce your R&D than to be able to match the competition by bumping displacement or creating new models by changing carb calibrations or timing to generate the required horsepower as stated on the cowl. You have to look long and hard to see any displacement designation on the cowl of the new 4 strokes and that is not by chance. I applaude the effort Rotax has made in developing a clean 2 stroke and doing it in a way that's far simpler and less costly than the Orbital or Ficht systems(both of which they own or licence). The fact that there's been some issues doesn't suprise me, any new technology has problems that require revisions and updates. The biggest issue has been the lack of cooling and lubrication of the bottom end without fuel passing through it, not lean mixtures. The challenge in 2 strokes is controlling unburnt hydrocarbons more than mixture issues. The simple fact for Yamaha was that it was less costly to adapt their 4 stroke motorcycle technology than start with a clean sheet of paper and design, test, and certify a new clean 2 stroke when the future wasn't clear on what the emission standards would be. Now they know exactly what they are and if they choose to ignore those of us that don't want 4 stroke power then the sliver of the market they currently enjoy will only get slimmer. For those that think Yamaha is amassing some huge technological advantage by producing 4 strokes guess again. The world is full of companies with huge amounts of knowledge and capabilities in the design and manufacture of 4 strokes and it's all for sale. The bottom line is none of us need (or in my case want)to be on a 4 stroke.
Some people will complain no matter what yamaha puts out, they (yamaha corp)doesnt worry about the 10 percent who want sno cross sleds, 2 strokes with 1000 cc's with triple pipes, because thats not where the future is in snowmobiles. If you have not noticed, they were developing the rx1 back in 99,(they just dropped the srx bombshell the year before), they are so far ahead of anyones thinking its not even funny. Did you ever the see the surveys yamaha puts out? I bet alot of you have filled them out?? they ask the age, gender and riding style?? ever wonder what all that stuffs goes to? Thats right, they dont have a 16 year old overall market, they dont need a sno cross sled, the general market for yamaha is groomed trail sled recreation riding!!!! Sorry if the truth hurts. Reliability, fuel economy, fit /finish, durability, resale value are things the big wigs decide from your surveys!!! All this talk about "no wonder it has to be a 1000 cc fourstroke to run in the 600-700 class", Ummm well yeah, it only makes half the power every 2 times ya know, do you guys understand that every time a 2 stroke piston comes up it fires and makes power? well how many times does a 4 stroke do this?? If you take a 200 cc 2 stroke for argument sake and put it in a sled and then a 200cc 4 stroke which one will make the sled faster in any given distance? wonder why???, since the 2 stroke is having 2 times the amount of power strokes! So if an engine only makes half the power at the same cc why should it be run in the same class??? Why is that simple fact so hard to understand???????The 4 strokes are here and they are gonna be here, you have to get used to it. It always seems the human brain does not like change, you get used to having your stuff one way and there is no room for anything else in your mind. How about computers and the internet?? I remember alot of people saying whats that? what good is it? "I hate computers" Well, now that all you see its a super highway for information its not too bad now is it? You sure as heck didnt have people doing this 10 years ago!!!! Times change people and so do the machines, the 2 strokes are not the only choice, and the choice is being made for you by your own elected leaders and the tree huggers assoc. There at one time was a few 2 stroke cars too, wonder why gm,ford,chrysler, have not built those too?? Because they are not practical!! A 2 stroke is a very unpractical engine, piston and ring wear is the main problem, the unburnt hydrocarbons is the other. How many snowmobiles do you know of that will run the same piston and rings for over 50,000 miles?? show me some. Now I can hear the whiners already saying, " ya but its my choice" well ,it was till you elected your own represenative who votes to close nat. parks riding and supports the EPA, other assoc. that employ things to make themselves rich, and employ sanctions against the general public!. The last thing to think about is this: the big 2 strokes with the new sdi injection, what kind of mods can you do to them?? I bet if yamaha would have produced a 800cc srx with sdi, there would be guys here crying that they couldnt make them faster because they cant modify the fuel injection system, I have heard the same thing about cars now for 20 years, guess what? the fuel injection, computer system makes more power and torq. on the same engine base then a carb and points distributor could ever dream of. When is the last time you saw a 305 carbed chevy small block make 215 hp and make almost as much torq as a 350, and its a stock engine??? If you dont like the technology why drive a new car?? go get a model A , it was the basic more simpler machine and alot lighter then the new ones are..... come on smell the coffeee!
vipertripplexxx
New member
easy on the coffee, mrviper, it's christmas, relax. I must say I did enjoy the reply. very convincing! 
There is a huge market for big knarlly-motored sleds, and seeing how yamaha is the premier builder of motors, well I thought they should take it another step is all. The profit margin is alot bigger too. please don't get upset, have some eggnog (that goofy little bastart can drink!)
There is a huge market for big knarlly-motored sleds, and seeing how yamaha is the premier builder of motors, well I thought they should take it another step is all. The profit margin is alot bigger too. please don't get upset, have some eggnog (that goofy little bastart can drink!)
Im not upset at all, just cant believe all the misinformed whiners here. If someone stood out at the corner of thier street and handed out a $100 bill to every car that came by, some of them would complain because they couldnt use it at mcdonalds or the local gas station cause its too big of a bill....lmao, have a great holiday!! Happy New Year!!!
Happy New Year!!!
Automed
New member
nystateboySRX said:2 stroke sleds make up a fraction of the air pollution. Look at the millons of cars in the larger citys; have you guys out there ever watched the news as they show pictures of like NYC, etc........smog all over!!! Common sense only says, deal with it where the big problems are and it would reduce air pollution.....stop going after us littte people that are trying to only have a good time from work.
It's everywhere you look squash the little guy cause it's easier!
Who's got more punch power Artic Cat, Polaris, Bombardier, Yamaha or say GMC or Ford or Chrysler...
That's just one example it happens all over audit the little guys trying to write off $500 bucks on their taxes but leave Donald Trump alone. Throw the petty thief in jail but let OJ go. Etc. Etc.
That's why I like my motto. Cause being too serious all the time will kill ya!
Automed
New member
yamaddiction said:
Air, Water and Soil Pollution went up by 45% in the province of Ontario between 1997 and 2003.
Doesn't look like it's going down to me!
Mrviper I embrace new technology and that's why it's frustrating to have one of the best designs ever created written off as old technology when it's nowhere near the end of it's developmental life. I'm not writing to protest the additions of liquid cooling, oil injection, digital ignition and power valves. Without the input of any legislative body the 2 stroke has continued to evolve as a simple, cheap to produce engine with a high power to weight ratio. It can be made to operate with emissions that meet or exceed 4 stroke technology. The automotive analogy is a good one because it highlights what can be achieved in the performance and efficiency of an engine when the resources are allocated to make those improvements. I can only wonder what the 2 stroke would have achieved with those billions of dollars of engineering time and talent applied to it, which was my point in the first place. I don't care if all the O.E.s produce 4 strokes, just don't walk away from a engine design that has way more potential left in it and some undisputable advantages over a 4 stroke. I will readily concede that the 2 stroke has durability issues just as 4 strokes did for many years until more modern designs and materials have eliminated them. Dependability is important to me durability isn't. I'm fortunate if I can roll up 2,000 miles a year so 50,000 mile rings have never been, and never will be an issue for me, and I suspect most snowmobilers and if Yamaha is so effectively target marketing all the right products to the 90% demographic of the market for their intended use why are they 4th in market share? I don't care if they are 4th, I have always ridden Yamahas and will continue to, I just don't agree with what they're doing and if disagreeing is whining them I'm a whiner.
good reply
yamahay, you and I both know that yamaha has always danced to a differnt drum. They do what they want and really to be honest, the market share in snowmobiles is not important, nor is sno cross racing, as they are well diversified with electronics,bikes,atv's, watercraft,musical inst.,etc. My point was just because you and I might not like the way things are done doesnt mean the world caters to you and me. We are the minority.....lol, great reply to mine, thanx and have a great Holiday, BTW- I dont really think your a whiner....lol
yamahay, you and I both know that yamaha has always danced to a differnt drum. They do what they want and really to be honest, the market share in snowmobiles is not important, nor is sno cross racing, as they are well diversified with electronics,bikes,atv's, watercraft,musical inst.,etc. My point was just because you and I might not like the way things are done doesnt mean the world caters to you and me. We are the minority.....lol, great reply to mine, thanx and have a great Holiday, BTW- I dont really think your a whiner....lol
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Hey Mrviper, thanks for the comments. I don't mind being considered a whiner especially at bed time, just ask my wife. The beauty of whining is sometimes it works, again, just ask my wife. I have to disagree about the part that as part of a diversified company they aren't worried about market share. I'm in sales myself and we all live and die based on sales and profitability. You can bet their marketing and product managers are spending long days looking for ways to grow share profitably. If the snowmobile division underperforms consistantly in profit contribution to the group, heads will roll until the situation improves or they'll reallocate resources into other operations like ATVS or motorcycles where they get a better return on investment. It all goes back to reason I believe we saw 4 strokes from Yamaha in the first place. The development costs of the latest new product (RX 1)was greatly reduced by using existing designs and tooling developed by the motorcycle guys and if I was in a management position with Yamaha I would have voted to go that way myself because of the question mark hanging over the industry with pending EPA legislation. I think the biggest motivator for Yamaha to go 4 stroke will continue to be the ability to cost share on new product development between divisions. Who would have guessed that Kawasaki and Suzuki would agree to share technology in certain segments or that the latest Saturn Vue Redline would have a Honda engine? It's all about reducing input costs and increasing profitability.
nystateboySRX
New member
Automed said:
I couldnt said it better
n2oiroc
New member
mrviper700 said:
well said. why does it matter how big the engine is? as long as fuel consumption is good and power is right there what does it matter if the 4 strokes are bigger? it isnt even a comparison in my book. i am also on a tacoma forum and guys bitch that toyota doesnt make a solid front axle on the tacomas! get a life, these companies make what satisfies the broadest range of customers. if they didnt, they would go down like blade and redline.
nystateboySRX
New member
It's not that people do not like the 4-strokes. It is based on the weight issue and the cost of rx-1..etc, not to mention that if you want to increase the HP to some degree, you have to buy a turbo which is about 5 grand on top of the 10 thousand price mark. I like the Rx-1's power and the sweet pull but please do somthing with the weight issue..
actionjack
VIP Member
I hear all the time about how heavy the 4 strokes are, and I wonder how many of the complainers have actually ridden one. I have a 97 SX700 and I haul *** on the trails and can hang with if not outrun rev riders in bumpy Tug Hill. I love the ride of my sled and didn't know that my suspension was insuffucient until I started reading snomo forums. The dealer tells me that the Vector handles as if its much lighter and I'll decide for myself once I get to ride one. Mostly I just want to fly on the trails anyway and I'd be happy to have a sled that will run for many thousands of miles longer and not have the smoke or smell. Just give me a fast sled that I can depend on get my moneys worth just as I have on my past and present Yamahas.
All that crazy shit you see in videos looks like fun but those kids always end up needing surgery and I have too much responsiblity to be making 150' jumps or 60' step ups. Give me a long twisty groomed or bumpy trail and I love that 40-80mph pull!
All that crazy shit you see in videos looks like fun but those kids always end up needing surgery and I have too much responsiblity to be making 150' jumps or 60' step ups. Give me a long twisty groomed or bumpy trail and I love that 40-80mph pull!
vipertripplexxx
New member
"Why does it matter how big the engine is?" Thats the whole issue! THERE F@%*ING HEAVY!!!! By the way big companies don't always make the right decisions, take a look at the vipers shocks, was their test rider A sumo wrestler? We aren't whinning, just opinions about what we like, and feel passionate about. It's great to hear all the responses, Think I'll have A sip of wine AHHHH that little bastart drank it all! 
AHHHH that little bastart drank it all!