2009 Sleds

I dont know everything about everything. I aplogize if I gave you that impression. I just disagree with Yamaholic. Lets just agree to disagree on this one and see what happens.
I know that sometimes I can be a very opinionated person. Once again, if that comes across as me being a know-it-all, I am sorry. That is not my intent and I most definetly do not think I know everything about everything.
 
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I hope yamaha reads these post ...I hope they come back with a direct inject 2 Stroke just like skidoo...clean slate new sled and new engine.

1- no trailing arms...97 trailing arms?
2- lacking suspension....torsion spring?
3- EPA requirements....easy lets go 4 stroke?

2 stroke = less parts = less money to build....period.
 
I take minor offense to expertx calling me a knowitall.

but not much...

holic and I, like Bake were merely having a discussion. We don't have to always agree.
But seeing others viewpoints really does help.

with all the extra DI stuff, building a 2 stroke is basically as expensive and complicated as a 4 stroke.

the old piston port 2 stroke was probably the easiest motor ever to produce. throw in exhasut valves, Detonation control, smart carbs, efi, 3 d digital ignition curves et all, and it all adds up.
 
Bakemono said:
Yamaholic, say what you want, but 2-strokes are on borrowed time. The fatal flaw that 2-strokes will never, ever be able to get away from is their total loss lubrication system. That makes them inherintly dirty engines.
Ponder this: if DI 2-strokes are so much better, why are almost all small industrial engines nowdays 4-strokes? Why are all cars and trucks 4-strokes? Why are all ATVs 4-strokes? Why are almost all motorcycles 4-strokes? If DI is so great, why go with a 4-stroke engine that is heavier, more comlicated, less powerful and more expensive to manufacture?
I understand you point, but if DI 2-strokes are so much better, why is just about everything making the switch to a 4-stroke?
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To the bold: The weight difference isn't as much as a snowmobile because some of those things are one cylinder motors, and in the case of cars, weight doesn't matter to a person that's using the car as an everyday driver. That's my .02 anyway.

I also hope we can buy 2 strokes for a while. I can't think of anything better than having the option to choose whether you want a 140HP DI 2 stroke or a 140 HP 4 stroke. I see 2 strokes sticking around for 6-8 years at least. Nobody has even given DI a try yet on mass produced sleds, might as well try it before just going to a completely 4 stroke lineup. my .02
 
By the way, the phazer 500 is not two yzf250 motors together. Yamaha marketed it that way because of the tie into "motocross bike for the snow".
Truth is, it is half an apex motor. Please dont try to argue with me, I am a 5 star certified Yamaha tech and I dont bs. Besides two of something sounds alot better than half of something else.
 
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it is weird that nobody ahs yet done a DI 2 stroke sled, well until now with the 09 doo DI.

DI has been employed on polaris PWC's and on doo PWC's for some time. IIRC years back when PWC's were getting DI, the reason they did not go onto sleds was due to ambient temp problems in winter. Also, added cost, and more lax emission requirements for sleds did not require the use of such technology.

But yeah, I can see 2 stroke sleds being produced another 6-8 years, but 4 strokes will get more and more popular.
 
One thing to consider is long term cost for the manufacturers. A well engineered 4-stroke will well outlast a comparable 2-stroke. Warranty claims cost them money. How many 4-strokes have you seen blown up in comparison to 2-strokes? It is not even close numbers wise. Also a motor with longer life expectancy adds value to a used sled. 5000 miles on a 4-stroke is perceived alot better than 5000 miles on a 2-stroke.
 
KatahdinLodge said:
By the way, the phazer 500 is not two yzf250 motors together. Yamaha marketed it that way because of the tie into "motocross bike for the snow".
Truth is, it is half an apex motor. Please dont try to argue with me, I am a 5 star certified Yamaha tech and I dont bs. Besides two of something sounds alot better than half of something else.
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it was a bit more than marketing.

half an apex? lol.

look at the bore and stroke of the apex vs the phazer, and then look at the bore and stroke of the yzf250f

copied and pasted directly from yamaha's website

apex bore and stroke
74.0 X 58.0

phazer bore and stroke
77.0 X 53.6

yz250F bore and stroke
77.0mm x 53.6mm

also, from yamaha personel, and every magazine and literature I have seen says that the phazer used 2 yzf250 cylinders.

I am sure as a yamaha tech, you would recognize a phazer cylinder to be the same architecture as the yzf250's cylinder, which is different than an apex cylinder.
 
Bore and stroke is bore and stroke. My point is that head design, bottom end/case design is based off the apex motor not two yzf250 motors. Anyone that has been to the tech update schools knows what I am talking about. Its fact.
 
horkn said:
really..

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelfeatures/559/0/features.aspx

maybe the case, since obviously there is no parallel twin YZF dirt bike.

The case had to be new, basing it off the apex would be logical, but obviously that is not a parts bin item.


did the engineers that designed the new phazer motor conduct the tech update schools?
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The cylinders are casted into the upper half of the case on the phazer so how can you even compare the looks of the cylinders when it doesnt even have seperate cylinders. The bore and stroke are about the only things comparable between the Phazer motor and YZ250F motor. Take a look at a parts fiche on both products and tell me the engine parts are comparable by design.
 
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horkn said:
really..

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelfeatures/559/0/features.aspx

maybe the case, since obviously there is no parallel twin YZF dirt bike.

The case had to be new, basing it off the apex would be logical, but obviously that is not a parts bin item.


did the engineers that designed the new phazer motor conduct the tech update schools?
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I never meant that it was literally half an apex motor. I meant that the overall design starting point was the apex motor. And no the engineers do not teach the update schools, I was fortunate enough to meet and learn from one of yamaha's most knowledgable people that worked for yamaha over 25 years, Tom Parr. He will be missed.
 
My prediction for 2009 sleds.
-Fx Nytro LTX

-Something new based off of the apex chassis, wont be as rider forward as the nytro with a four cylinder version of the nytro motor.
 
ExpertXViper said:
The cylinders are casted into the upper half of the case on the phazer so how can you even compare the looks of the cylinders when it doesnt even have seperate cylinders. The bore and stroke are about the only things comparable between the Phazer motor and YZ250F motor. Take a look at a parts fiche on both products and tell me the engine parts are comparable by design.
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if you looked at the Fiche, you would see that while there are not 2 separate cylinders on the phazer, but they are joined together as one unit.

I hope nobody misunderstood that the phazer does not have 2 separate cylinders , because that is painfully obvious just looking at the phazer motor, even when in the chassis.

But architechturally, the head and cylinder design is the same as a yzf250 dirt bike, and is another reason the bore and stroke is the same as well. I never said the 2 shared part numbers for the cylinders and heads.

I wouldn't doubt if the yzf had the same size intake and exhaust valves as the phazer.

back to the 09 preditions though...


yami would be remiss if they did not make a Nytro LTX, that would be a sure hit, and probably the sled I would buy if I were to buy an 09.
 
LOL.....I really dont understand how something can be "architechturally" the same when there completely diff. looking. Architecture is a design of a physical object(so the way you see it is the way it is) so please feel free to explain why you think those cylinders/heads look anything alike.

Now one person I happen to agree with is KatahdinLodge and his concept of the Phazer motor being BASED off half a Apex engine. Compare the top half of the Apex's crankcase to the Phazers top half and look to see if theres more of a similarity there (besides the extra 2 cylinders) than the YZ250F. I sure think so.

But like I said before there no winning with you Horkn, so I will no longer go on with you about this.

BTW I want Yamaha to build a EFI or DI 1200cc PVed Triple/Triple 2S Lake Runner!!!! Itll never happen but I can dream.

T T T!!!! Back on topic please
 
I could see a new version of the apex with a few more ponnies and maybe based in the nytro style chassis. Yamaha has done quite a few surprising things lately so its hard to say whats next. Either way, they have a great lineup now and I'm sure it will only get better.
 
I would love to see a 4cyl nytro motor in another chassis. Imagine an apex but 50lbs lighter with 170-180 hp, and with the torque that engine platform makes!!! The stuff is all there. The vector motor which evolved into the nytro motor was based on the FJR1300 motorcycle motor minus one cyl. Just put the 4th hole back in it guys!
We can all hope.
 
Anyone click the link at the bottom of the blog? classic quote:

This is from a DOO diehard in regard to his findings in a Yamaha.

"Now I understand why these sleds are a bit heavier, there's at least an extra 50 pounds of quality in them".
 
2009 sled unveiling at the Eastern championships New York

I saw on the yamaha web site that they are showing one of the '09 sleds at the Eastern Snowcross Championships in Verona NY on the 8th. It is saying that it will be at 3 AM. Any validity to this? I am in New York, but not near there, I would be willing to make the trip if it is true. Any feed back would be great.
Sold my '06 RTX this year and have been riding my '02 viper. I can't wait to get back on 4 stroke.
 
jedwards89 said:
I saw on the yamaha web site that they are showing one of the '09 sleds at the Eastern Snowcross Championships in Verona NY on the 8th. It is saying that it will be at 3 AM. Any validity to this? I am in New York, but not near there, I would be willing to make the trip if it is true. Any feed back would be great.
Sold my '06 RTX this year and have been riding my '02 viper. I can't wait to get back on 4 stroke.
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sounds about right.

They did this a couple years ago at the Minocqua Cruiserfest in Early February and had the next year Apex RTX and Apex models prior to any regualrly scheuled show. And this was when the RX1 was still the top dog, and nobody outside of Yamaha heard of the Apex yet.

I never expected to see pre production next years models at a radar run and fund raising event for a local snowmobile club. Hopefully that info is correct, and if so take pics and post them here. If Yami, or any other companies bring pre production next years sleds this coming weekend, I will take pics and post them on TY as well.

expertx, if you can't see that they took the yzf250F cylinder design ( architechture) and used that to make a twin cylinder version, then I can't explain things any easier to you. With CAD programs like Solidworks and such, you can easily slice parts away and add material where you want to end up with the desired result. It is more of a coincidence that the yzf250 and the phazer share bore and stroke sizes. But I guess in the end you will believe what you want, so that's fine.
 
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