Gas with ethanol

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PenguinLuke33

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I don't know if this is just in New York state or nation wide. I guess that they are going to make it a law that all gas stations have to have gas with ethanol in it. Ethanol in gas is like putting water in gas, it's not good for your machine or cars. If you put gas with ethanol in your sled you have a very high chance of frying your engine. Last winter a few of my dads friends didn't see the sign on the pump that said gas with ethonal and they fryed their engines, and now I hear it might become a law that all gas stations have to use it. I posted this to hear what your guys thoughts are on this topic.
 

Mid west has had ethanol for a while and I don't think they've had too many problems with it. Its the same octane as fuel without ethanol with just a little less energy. I'm guessing those sleds were running on the ragged edge anyway and were doomed to burn down if they thought the could get away with using pump gas which is known to be inconsistent.
 
Ethanol & 2 Strokes

Well, this is a good one for lots of discussions, both pro & con.
I for one am not a fan of it in fuel we have to use for the smaller motors & 2 strokes. There is WAY TOO much evidence AGAINST what it really does.
With that said, I have come to believe that there may be different grades of the ethanol as many guys in the mid west will say they have had no problems.
But I can say that here in OR where it was mandated 3 years or so ago to be only ethanol, we have had a lot of problems. And the problems are not with how the fuel works-runs in the sleds or small motors. It is the lack of "shelf life" which is proven to be 6-8 weeks, yep...thats all. And then there is the corosive nature of this fine fuel that loves to eat gaskets, o-rings etc.
Here are some interesting links for you to review that talk about the fine qualities of ethanol

http://www.theoutboardwizard.com/boat_ethanol_danger_precaution.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25936782/

http://www.factsaboutethanol.org/?

http://www.factsaboutethanol.org/?p=299

http://www.amlibpub.com/liberty_blog/2006/09/ethanol-damage.html

So, be educated, dont let the shit sit in your tanks too long and you will be fine.I lost one motor 2 years ago to this stuff & not from lean jetting or anything like that. I did not realise that the shelf life was short & the stuff absorbs moisture so the bottom crank bearings on a completely stock Phazer II with 2400 miles went down on its opeing season ride. OOPS. I now store the sleds with NON ethanol fuel & start them every 6-8 weeks which works in my drier climate. I also just replaced the carb on my 7 year old Honda Hydrostat lawn mower due to excessive corrosion in the carb from...yep..ethanol!!

The small engine guys love this shit as it does help business with repairs & parts sales!! Enjoy the crap...!!! LOL

Rob
 
Groovetastic said:
Mid west has had ethanol for a while and I don't think they've had too many problems with it. Its the same octane as fuel without ethanol with just a little less energy. I'm guessing those sleds were running on the ragged edge anyway and were doomed to burn down if they thought the could get away with using pump gas which is known to be inconsistent.
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? I don't understand to much of that except midwest has had it for awhile and hasn't had to many miles
 
From what I understand all gas as of the early 80's contains 10% ethanol. The sleds we drive are made to run on this type of gas. Now if obama gets his way and they double that it will make problems for us 2 stroke guys. Not to mention my nice cub cadet lawn tractor. I could not find any long term studys on the effects of 20% ethanol on line. I'm sure its there but dont want to look that hard. I just hope they do not pass the bill. I have a feeling it could mean a lot of trouble to us. The more mods the more trouble? Just my opinion.
 
your correct about the 80's They have put about 10% ethanol in gas since the mid 80's... I believe the manual says to re-jet for additional ethanol and u need more of it to make the same power.

Alot of burn downs last year, When I ride my SRX this year, even with going back to a stock motor, Im going to use a half bottle per tank of 104 booster in the black bottle. not taking any chances
 
tomseal6 said:
your correct about the 80's They have put about 10% ethanol in gas since the mid 80's... I believe the manual says to re-jet for additional ethanol and u need more of it to make the same power.

Alot of burn downs last year, When I ride my SRX this year, even with going back to a stock motor, Im going to use a half bottle per tank of 104 booster in the black bottle. not taking any chances
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From what I've read and personal experiences, the shelf life is much shorter and running old fuel will increase the chances of detonation. Using octane boost should help but I would recommend draining all fuel, storing dry and using in season fuel when the season starts.
 
Ethonal?????????

A while back Greg at Lakewood Motersports told me to always run high grade or 93 octane in my sleds. The main reason for this was it is a cleaner or better refined gas. Less crud and corruption going thru the carbs and engine. My dad who was a mechanic and owned a full service station also told me that it is mainly cleaner and yes higher octane. Some gas stations still sell ethanol free 93 octane. Shell gas stations are one I know of. If I'm riding and I always try to put in the high grade if available even if it has ethanol.

The only thing I do to my sleds is run stable thru them in the spring, fog the motor and suck out all the gas from the tank before storing.

Now watch this will be the year I have problems.

I wonder if there was any benefits or problems with two strokes when we use to have leaded regular gas?
 
Lead was a big help to head off detonation. The EPA made the country switch from it im guessing about 40 years ago since lead is a gross polluter when burned in a gas engine.

I used a fair amount of stabil in my tank to store my 09 Nytro when I had to park my sled for the year last February but reguardless, im sure a 4 stroke fuel injected engine is much more forgiving.
 
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tomseal6 said:
Lead was a big help to head off detonation. The EPA made the country switch from it im guessing about 40 years ago since lead is a gross polluter when burned in a gas engine.

I used a fair amount of stabil in my tank to store my 09 Nytro when I had to park my sled for the year last February but reguardless, im sure a 4 stroke fuel injected engine is much more forgiving.
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The use of lead in fuel was for valve stem/seat lubrication but would also reduce combustion temps (lower friction=lower temps) and delay detonation. It was phazed out in the early seventies for pollution concerns and it would contaminate exhaust cats.

Many hot rodders had to swap valves with stainless/titanium or sodium filled.

My guess would be modern two strokes wouldn't benifit from leaded fuel.
 
I hate ethanol and won't put it in ANY of my small engines. It's maybe fine for passenger vehicles, but not sleds, boats, ATV's, etc.

At least for now, outside of the Twin Cities (maybe there also) in MN you can buy nonoxygenated (non-ethanol) gasoline in 91 octane.

Mike
 
PenguinLuke33 said:
? I don't understand to much of that except midwest has had it for awhile and hasn't had to many miles
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I'm not sure what you didn't understand but let me try.

Ethenol may have less energy potential than gasoline but its used to increase octane. That means oxiginated fuels have the same resistance to detonation as regular gasoline.

You mentioned that you knew a couple sleds that burned motors because of the ethanol. In my expirience, guys are always modding their sleds and leaning them out as much as possible just to race their buddies on the trails. Then they think they can get away with running 93 pump gas. But pump gas, especially bought on the trails, is very inconsistent. So ethanol or not, sleds set up that way were going to implode the first time they got a little bad fuel anyway. Your average sled just out of the crate would have no problem burning the same fuel though. Unless it was a ski doo and then who knows?

Of course if the sleds you reffered to hadn't been messed with then disregard what I just said.
 
Groovetastic said:
I'm not sure what you didn't understand but let me try.

Ethenol may have less energy potential than gasoline but its used to increase octane. That means oxiginated fuels have the same resistance to detonation as regular gasoline.

You mentioned that you knew a couple sleds that burned motors because of the ethanol. In my expirience, guys are always modding their sleds and leaning them out as much as possible just to race their buddies on the trails. Then they think they can get away with running 93 pump gas. But pump gas, especially bought on the trails, is very inconsistent. So ethanol or not, sleds set up that way were going to implode the first time they got a little bad fuel anyway. Your average sled just out of the crate would have no problem burning the same fuel though. Unless it was a ski doo and then who knows?

Of course if the sleds you reffered to hadn't been messed with then disregard what I just said.
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That is true. Sleds and other gas engines have been made to use 10% ethanol since the 1980's. The owners manual gives recommendations on fuels. Ethanol burns cooler than gas and increases the octane rating. It will keep the fuel system cleaner. It also will burn slightly leaner, but now whenever there is any kind of engine failure, it is blamed on ethanol. I fried many pistons before there was ethanol in gas and many other people did as well. Those trashed pistons are often these days blamed on ethanol along with every other engine problem from bad cranks to carb problems to running poorly to water in the gas. I have never seen ethanol cause a water problem in fuel. What is the fuel de-icer in the bottle that you pour in your gas to disperse water? It is ethanol.
 
Ok anybody thats from the mid west that says theres no problems is lying or has no clue, there has been nothing but problems, with two strokes and four strokes, i work on both, it usually doesnt take out a four stroke just screws up the fuel system and stops it from running ,fuel injection cars, the fuel runs in a loop up to the motor back to the tank always mixing so when you run it in your car all you mite get is a miss now and then, unless the fuel is to saturated then it will not run or run very poorly,on 2 strokes which uses the fuel to run and lube internal parts bearings,cylinder wall,ect. the crapinal is a solvent and breaks down the oil which is not good, it also holds to much water, water and oil dont mix another thing that is no good for a two stroke, and being a solvent if it is just being introduced by you it will clean your fuel system which is good and bad, regular fuel has left deposits in your system, which it will clean while you drive, these deposits i have seen clogged jets leaning mixture giving you more power until it blows (not too long) it has no shelf life, i had a customer put new fuel in his tank on friday and called on monday with running problem i went to look at it and the fuel was seperated thats two days so either he got fuel that was on the verge of seperation from the gas station or it has no shelf life, i see things like this every day it gets old!! in the last few years i have cleaned more carbs then in my 30+ years of working on motors,as for the gas dryer that was for regular fuel back in the days when water didnt mix with fuel and would collect in bottom of tank to get it out you added crapinal and it would absorb the water, mix with the fuel and be burned but that amount is nowhere near the amount that crapinal absorbs before it seperates, the only thing i can tell you is what i tell my customers, only put in your tank what your going to use, and when your done shut off fuel and run motor until it dies, this has been working ok so far....but if you leave this fuel in your tank you are just asking for problems, i dont believe in lottery juices like stabil ect, maybe they work maybe not just not good odds i hope this helps
 
That did help no1chevyboy thank you, and I have never herd that the gas stations have used 10%, not saying its wrong I just never herd it, the gas station people just say to me when I ask them yes or no so ill ask about that next time.
 
no1chevyboy said:
snip -,fuel injection cars, the fuel runs in a loop up to the motor back to the tank always mixing so when you run it in your car all you mite get is a miss now and then, unless the fuel is to saturated then it will not run or run very poorly,- snipon

What about automotive returnless fuel systems? There are some with a bleed orifice on the PPRV, but what about those without?


2 strokes which uses the fuel to run and lube internal parts bearings,cylinder wall,ect. the crapinal is a solvent and breaks down the oil which is not good, it also holds to much water, water and oil dont mix another thing that is no good for a two stroke, and being a solvent if it is just being introduced by you it will clean your fuel system which is good and bad, regular fuel has left deposits in your system, which it will clean while you drive, these deposits i have seen clogged jets leaning mixture giving you more power until it blows (not too long)


There are many solvents within gasoline that doesn't have ethanol. Agreed that it is more aggressive on non-viton seals and lines, but I have not seen this additional cleaning of deposits on customer vehicles that have seen annual/regular carb cleaning. This may be true on poorly maintained equipment, but for our discussion most regulars hear faithfully pull regular PM.


it has no shelf life,


This is where I can get on board the bash ethanol train. IMHO - this has more to do with early season burn downs than anything related to fuel delivery.
For those that don't have dirty carbs but use last year's fuel, you're getting the prescribed amount of fuel, it's just not fresh enough to meet minimum octane requirments. You warm things up, strap on the helmet and pin it across the lake for the first run of the season. If you're lucky you made it across, but the return WOT back to the truck and Mr. Squeaky shows up.


i had a customer put new fuel in his tank on friday and called on monday with running problem i went to look at it and the fuel was seperated thats two days so either he got fuel that was on the verge of seperation from the gas station or it has no shelf life, i see things like this every day it gets old!! in the last few years i have cleaned more carbs then in my 30+ years of working on motors,as for the gas dryer that was for regular fuel back in the days when water didnt mix with fuel and would collect in bottom of tank to get it out you added crapinal and it would absorb the water, mix with the fuel and be burned but that amount is nowhere near the amount that crapinal absorbs before it seperates, the only thing i can tell you is what i tell my customers, only put in your tank what your going to use, and when your done shut off fuel and run motor until it dies, this has been working ok so far....but if you leave this fuel in your tank you are just asking for problems, i dont believe in lottery juices like stabil ect, maybe they work maybe not just not good odds i hope this helps
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I hope you don't think I'm picking on you, and I agree that the longer it's exposed to the atmosphere, the greater the chances of Mr. Squeaky making a cameo, but I just haven't seen the same problems (outside of detonation) that you discribe.

I'm no proponent of ethanol, I just don't think it's the bogger-man its made out to be.
 
I look up the thing about how they have been using 10% ethonal gas in the U.S. since the mid-1980's and I found it was not in the U.S. it was in Brazil so I'm wondering why people are saying they have been using 10% since the mid-1980's. Also I am with no1chevyboy because the ethonal starts to seperate after 10 days so who knows how long it will be in the tanks at the gas station and if you burn pure ethonal through your sled, bye bye engine.
 
no prob snomofo i just said that about autos for an example so more people can kindof understand, if it has no return it will stop running faster or run very poor if the fuel is bad, but it takes longer on them because they are not vented directly to atmosphere,(newer fuel injection) and driven more, i have had problems with two stroke efi but most of the time its from lack of use and fuel spoils smells like turpitin and everything is filled with this jelly from hell, nothing touches it except sonic tank cleaner and even then its do it twice, the biggest problem is with carbs you can take them apart and not see anything, but its there the clear jelly, on the motors i work on now they are (green happy motors) that are jetted to the min, so (gore and his herd of morons) are happy, but the passeges are so small they clog quickly,this again is not on a motor that is used daily maybe everyother or once a week and this consistantly comes up which was never as bad before crapinal, some might say well thats good for business not!!!!!!!!!!! when every week you have two clean there fuel system they tend to get sceptical, there were never these problems before crapinal its a fuel that makes you more dependent on it because it sours so quikly, you cant store any, run it all and buy more. if it was any good they would use it in planes and the military which ive heard they dont, the green people dont want snowmobles,dirtbikes,boats,atvs,anything that you can have fun on or enjoy, the only way they will be happy is if you are pushing it down a hill like a sled. sorry for the rant but this fuel is a farce and totally infereor and unneeded
 
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