PenguinLuke33 said:
I don't see chance3131 make any claims that ethanol is good for sleds. The point I see him (or her) make is that ethanol seems to be working for automotive (4 stroke) especially in Brazil.
I could just as easily make the assumption that chebbyboy works for big oil because without 10% ethanol, they'd sell 10% more petrol... but I won't.
I won't question his motives because his experiences don't match mine.
One thing I learned early on in my diagnostic career is to keep an open mind and to not assume you know it all.
chance3131
New member
I'm not trying to say right or wrong on this subject. I have never said that it is good for sleds either. Read the post. If you go by media reports you would think ethanol is to blame for all of the worlds problems. I believe there are two sides to every story and it appears you are only willing to listen and consider one side which is fine, but don't be insulted that I question your "facts". It is not meant to be insulting, I just don't believe all of the hype either way. Don't be afraid of change, it is not always bad.
I expect and have no problems running gas with crapinol/ethanol in it in my larger car engines -- the government is smart to mandate that. An Oil independent U.S. from Iran/Iraq/Russia/Venezuela/etc. is necessary.
But the government should also allow the sale of "good" or ethanol-free gas (even if they charge us more for it, i guess...) for use in small engines, especially any 2 strokes......... Those carbs/engines can't last using
crapinol --- Period.
I fear someday the gov't won't even allow non-ethanol gas to be sold, then our small engines will all be blowing up regularily. Good for small engine repair shops though, that's for sure!
Thx,
Mike
But the government should also allow the sale of "good" or ethanol-free gas (even if they charge us more for it, i guess...) for use in small engines, especially any 2 strokes......... Those carbs/engines can't last using
crapinol --- Period.
I fear someday the gov't won't even allow non-ethanol gas to be sold, then our small engines will all be blowing up regularily. Good for small engine repair shops though, that's for sure!
Thx,
Mike
chance3131
New member
Yep, every single 2 stroke sled on the snow in Michigan blew up last year because ethanol does that to engines. I forgot about the states of WI, Iowa, IL, and Indiana. I bet it caused the price of metal to go up due to the huge increase of jugs and pistons that needed to be replaced. This has been going on now for 20 years. I can't believe they were able to keep it underwraps for so long. Must have been expensive to keep you guys quiet.
I think the point we can all agree on is this -- in larger 4 stroke motors (i.e., cars and trucks we commute in and tow our sleds in) using ethanol blended fuels is fine. Those larger motors can handle the fuel, even if it has phase seperated or absorbed water, as alcohol by it's very nature will do. That's just simple chemistry.
But smaller engines like sleds, lawn motors, snow blowers, ATV's, string trimmers, etc. will have more problems using. Maybe it's because they get used less frequently and the ethanol phase seperates and attracts water........ That's a big problem.
I just will not put the stuff in any 2 strokes, or motors with small carbs, or even small 4 strokes for that matter.
But for our commuter vehicles, cars, trucks, etc. using ethanol blended fuels is good public policy IF it tends to reduce our dependence on foreign oil OR if the price of oil is high.......
If oil is cheap, forget it. Or if we were oil independent, why do it as ethanol blended fuels are inferior in many respects.
The reason Brazil uses so much ethanol is that they are a major sugar producer. Sugar contains a higher energy content then corn, which is fact. Also, sugar makes ethanol more cheaply than corn. All around a better source for ethanol. So Brazil has a unique situation we don't have.
Also according to research, making corn into ethanol uses more energy than it saves in gasoline. It also drives up the price of food, which we've all seen at the grocery store. It's not good policy to have your fuel supply competing with your food supply! And I say this despite living in MN, a major ethanol producing state.
The process also uses/wastes a tremendous amount of ground water -- areas of Southwestern MN are having major troubles with acquifers being sucked dry around these ethanol plants.
While ethanol is here to stay, corn is not the long term source. Too costly. Sugar beets may provide a lot. Or as George Bush used to say -- "Switch Grass!", which may be a potential source too. We'll see.
For cars, I hope Hydrogen/Fuel Cell technology advances.....
But for sleds, just pure high grade gasoline.
Mike
But smaller engines like sleds, lawn motors, snow blowers, ATV's, string trimmers, etc. will have more problems using. Maybe it's because they get used less frequently and the ethanol phase seperates and attracts water........ That's a big problem.
I just will not put the stuff in any 2 strokes, or motors with small carbs, or even small 4 strokes for that matter.
But for our commuter vehicles, cars, trucks, etc. using ethanol blended fuels is good public policy IF it tends to reduce our dependence on foreign oil OR if the price of oil is high.......
If oil is cheap, forget it. Or if we were oil independent, why do it as ethanol blended fuels are inferior in many respects.
The reason Brazil uses so much ethanol is that they are a major sugar producer. Sugar contains a higher energy content then corn, which is fact. Also, sugar makes ethanol more cheaply than corn. All around a better source for ethanol. So Brazil has a unique situation we don't have.
Also according to research, making corn into ethanol uses more energy than it saves in gasoline. It also drives up the price of food, which we've all seen at the grocery store. It's not good policy to have your fuel supply competing with your food supply! And I say this despite living in MN, a major ethanol producing state.
The process also uses/wastes a tremendous amount of ground water -- areas of Southwestern MN are having major troubles with acquifers being sucked dry around these ethanol plants.
While ethanol is here to stay, corn is not the long term source. Too costly. Sugar beets may provide a lot. Or as George Bush used to say -- "Switch Grass!", which may be a potential source too. We'll see.
For cars, I hope Hydrogen/Fuel Cell technology advances.....
But for sleds, just pure high grade gasoline.
Mike
P.S. my father owns 2 farms in Southeastern SD and he cringes to hear me talk about this -- he just LOVES how the price of corn as shot up in last few years. However, he won't use ethanol blended fuels in his ATV either!
Mike
Mike
no1chevyboy said:
This is my last post on this subject. My opinions don't match yours so that makes me a sucker, girl and goofball? Nice. Sounds like a liberal's way of arguing. I'll leave it to you to continue to piss, moan and name call.
I have no doubt you are seeing issues with this fuel, we did 10+ years ago. Having read my recommendations with regards to fuel and sleds, where are we not in agreement?
Perhaps your state is just phasing it in. We've been dealing with it for over 10 years in Michigan. Since it's introduction, the only high octane pump fuel without ethanol was Amoco which I burned exclusively. Now, it's use is unavoidable.
Anyone who rides in Michigan requiring 91+ octane without a chase vehicle full of known quality fuel is going to end up running it weather they know it or not. And they probably won't know because it isn't required to label the pump as such. Might just as well prepare for it instead of whinning about it.
I never said I liked ethanol, it is what it is.
And for the record... drill here, drill now.
John
chance3131
New member
Your highly intelligent dialogue and extreme ranting should put this thread in the trash. The subject of using more water to produce ethanol is a very good debate. When do you want to start counting the gallons? When the corn is planted or when the oil well is being drilled? How many gallons of water is pumped into an oil well to get the oil out??? Thousands upon thousands. How many gallons does it take to grow enough corn to supply one ethanol plant? Thousands up thousands. Who is counting and who is doing the study will explain which is more wasteful. The price of corn drove up food prices because of ethanol production, then what drove up the price of gasoline? Ethanol? Quit believing everything you hear or read. The reason food went up is because everything went up, due to the price of gasoline. Wake up and start pointing your finger in the right direction. According to research by the way, ethanol production uses about 3-5 gallons of water per gallon of ethanol. A gallon of gasoline uses about 42 gallons of water to produce. My liberal goofball girl fingers are tired now. Thanks for showing how great this site can be.
PenguinLuke33
New member
Chance3131 I was never "insulted" I just wanted to hear some more opinions on this topic/ways to protect your sled better running with this stuff running in it. Also snomofo I don't understand why you said "One thing I learned early on in my diagnostic career is to keep an open mind and to not assume you know it all." when I started the thread because I want to know more and don't know much about ethonal except that it has blow alot of engines. So how about you tell me some more information instead of giving me nothing
What got your undies in such a bunch there Chance?
no1chevyboy
New member
as for name calling it started post 41 and it wasnt me! back to subject pengiun if you install good exhaust temp gauges,dont jet to optimum,dont store sled with fuel in it, make sure you fog the motor really good when storing and install a vent valve for riding during season you should be ok running 10% but there is no way to fix phazed fuel that i no of drill here now!!!!!!! this fuel is an agenda not a need go to utube the energy non crisis by lindsey williams see what you think? i tend to believe the little guy not the gov. just my opinion
chance3131
New member
mntvipermn said:
Nothing really, just could not leave this thread ending in a bunch of name calling. I figured responding with real facts and not with opinion could possibly save this thread to being somewhat useful besides identifying individuals that close minded. I personally would like to run the non-oxygenated fuel in my srx as on long wide open runs the DCS does not activate, but that is the only time I have any issues with it. Take the time to take care of your fuel system just like everyone should and you will hardly see a difference running E-10. The rest is either over exaggeration, neglect or propaganda.
No1chev,
I see where you thought the name calling started, but it could be as easy as someone hitting the b key rather than the v key seeing they are next to each other on the key board. I don't know the person that typed it, so maybe you should ask them before replying. Either way, it really isn't called for and not needed on this site. Thanks for making this a better place.
I too am done with this thread. Sorry to the guy who actually wanted to get some useful information out of this.
chance3131
New member
No1chevy- I lied, I have one more question. What is a vent valve? This is a serious question, not meant to start anything.
Let's see chance 3131, you claim you've given us "the real facts and not (your) personal opinion," right? I frankly disagree. Your whole diatribe in your posting has been about your personal opinions.
And what facts have you presented?? None really. You seem to deny phase separation or water absorption exist as a problem with ethanol. Of course this message is implicit in your posting hidden amongst your patronizing speech about how ethanol is just fine and you are the only one not being snowed by big oil and politicians. You have spent how many threads getting P.O.'d appearing to disagree with everybody and claim that ethanol is just fine.
But then a funny thing happened at the end, you claim you are done with this thread and basically flip flop sides and now proclaim you don't want ethanol either. What???? At least stick with your position.
But the fact is corn ethanol does not make economic sense -- it could never exists as a viable fuel option but for enormous subsidizing by Federal and State governments all around. Like I said, it takes more energy to make 1 gallon of corn ethanol then the fuel it saves. Those are the facts. I am sorry this pisses you off. What, are you invested in alcohol/ethanol distilleries or something?
I am all for energy independence -- go back and read my posts. But I don't believe ethanol is the tool to get us there.
Now about ethanol's quality as a fuel -- I stand by my points that the stuff is no good for 2 strokes, small engines, tiny carbs, or even small 4 strokes. Phase separation and water absorption are real and occur with ethanol. And further, running water through your 2 stroke sled motor will do very, very bad things inside there.
But go ahead and fill 'er up and request E85 for your Yammi. I just hope you are good with a wrench.
Mike
And what facts have you presented?? None really. You seem to deny phase separation or water absorption exist as a problem with ethanol. Of course this message is implicit in your posting hidden amongst your patronizing speech about how ethanol is just fine and you are the only one not being snowed by big oil and politicians. You have spent how many threads getting P.O.'d appearing to disagree with everybody and claim that ethanol is just fine.
But then a funny thing happened at the end, you claim you are done with this thread and basically flip flop sides and now proclaim you don't want ethanol either. What???? At least stick with your position.
But the fact is corn ethanol does not make economic sense -- it could never exists as a viable fuel option but for enormous subsidizing by Federal and State governments all around. Like I said, it takes more energy to make 1 gallon of corn ethanol then the fuel it saves. Those are the facts. I am sorry this pisses you off. What, are you invested in alcohol/ethanol distilleries or something?
I am all for energy independence -- go back and read my posts. But I don't believe ethanol is the tool to get us there.
Now about ethanol's quality as a fuel -- I stand by my points that the stuff is no good for 2 strokes, small engines, tiny carbs, or even small 4 strokes. Phase separation and water absorption are real and occur with ethanol. And further, running water through your 2 stroke sled motor will do very, very bad things inside there.
But go ahead and fill 'er up and request E85 for your Yammi. I just hope you are good with a wrench.
Mike
no1chevyboy
New member
chance it would be a valve you put on vent line so when you are not useing your sled (during week days?) you can close your vent to help stop water absortion from the melting snow under hood and in the air. just my opinion
PenguinLuke33 said:
Nothing?
See posts 7,10,16,18,30,34,47.
no1chevyboy said:
Actually, the name calling started in thread 14 when you suggested anyone from the mid-west that didn't agree with you was a lier or some shrill for BIG OIL/ETHANOL. As it turns out, I did lie since I'm back on this thread.
As for post 41, I did type "Chebby" on purpose. It's and old hot-rodding term that came from a trim package offered on the Chevelle in the early 70's. I figured since you're only a year younger than me you'd know "Heabby Chebby". Sorry for being insensative.
All,
Bottom line again... You can not rely on what is or isn't marked on the pump, so it's best to assume you're getting 10% ethanol. At least in Michigan and more than likely other states.
- Don't rely on your EGTs warning you in time.
- Don't summer store with any fuel.
- Don't assume closing off tank/bowl vents will reduce seperation (it'll more than likely fill the crankcase with fuel that overcomes float pressure on the needle and seat caused by vapor generation).
I've been guilty myself for going off half-cocked only to find I didn't know all I thought I did. I talk to techs all day long and have to weed-out some of the editorial from thier story to get to root-cause. You also can't rely on what the customer says or doesn't say.
no1chevyboy gave a few examples of customers with soured fuel. I've been personally involved with customer vehicles that also had contaminated fuel that turned out to be introduced by an ex-husband or in one case an ex-wife. He also suggested in one instance that the fuel came from a high volume station. Were there headlines in the next day's paper "Local station leaves hundreds stranded"? I'm not suggesting the fuel wasn't seperated or contaminated. But if no one else had issues on that day from that station, perhaps there's another answer. What was in the tank prior to filling at that station.
I won't argue the politics of this fuel. That wasn't the original intent of this thread. I've given my opinion which may seen like nothing to some, but it's based on my experiences over the past 10 years+ dealing with this unmarked fuel. I haven't detonated my sled and after following my recommendations, neither have my riding buddies. Take it for what it's worth.
One other thing that could explain performance issues with modern small two strokes. As no1cheveboy pointed out, today's two strokes and small 4 strokes are run very lean to curb exhaust emissions. I have had to drill out main jets on lawn mowers, weedwackers and other implements just so they would perform satisfactory. I also found that a rich oil to fuel ratio with the premix fuel will lean things out enough to cause performance issues. In other words, you can't just eye-ball when mixing premix fuel. Since I'm a bit lazy I run Amsoil 100:1 and still eye-ball on the lean side.
Peace, love and rock-n-roll!!
JJS
PhatboyC
New member
About ethanol fuel separation. If you go the retailers own website like Shell, Chevron etc. you will find that they say Ethanol gas will last a minimum of one year in a sealed container. Now our gas tank are vented but come one guys, it will not separate while your having lunch with your buddies on the side of the trail.
We have been using it here since 1994 with no problems what so ever.
What is important is the level of detergent in the gas you buy. Without enough detergent your pistons and valve becomes all carbon up with deposits. Now that is more serious! That's why I only buy from retailers on the Top Tier Gas list.
We have been using it here since 1994 with no problems what so ever.
What is important is the level of detergent in the gas you buy. Without enough detergent your pistons and valve becomes all carbon up with deposits. Now that is more serious! That's why I only buy from retailers on the Top Tier Gas list.
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chance3131
New member
That is not their experience, so you must be wrong. It separates instantly when introduced to a 2 stroke engine.
MtVip
By the way, I never flip flopped. I don't see the problem with ethanol, and I know it is not as bad as you guys are saying it is. Your experiences of blowing up engines and separating are unbelievable. When I lived in MN I ran the non oxygenated fuel in my srx, it ran better on wide open runs. Here in MI we don't have the option of non oxygenated fuels and guess what I have yet to have my engine fail. I must be one lucky SOB and all of the guys I ride with. Even the ski doo's are amazingly staying together. Hell, even a Cat rides with us.
This thread has been fun, but also disturbing because if you guys are really having that many problems with engines coming apart, there is probably more than ethanol to blame, like leaky tanks. I just don't buy it. There has been too many years and people that have not had these issues.
I never said ethanol is the answer either, but I do think it is part of the solution.
Quit putting words in my mouth. I like ethanol, it isn't the end all, but we need to start somewhere to end our oil independence.
Farming is subsidized too, should we stop that?
MtVip
By the way, I never flip flopped. I don't see the problem with ethanol, and I know it is not as bad as you guys are saying it is. Your experiences of blowing up engines and separating are unbelievable. When I lived in MN I ran the non oxygenated fuel in my srx, it ran better on wide open runs. Here in MI we don't have the option of non oxygenated fuels and guess what I have yet to have my engine fail. I must be one lucky SOB and all of the guys I ride with. Even the ski doo's are amazingly staying together. Hell, even a Cat rides with us.
This thread has been fun, but also disturbing because if you guys are really having that many problems with engines coming apart, there is probably more than ethanol to blame, like leaky tanks. I just don't buy it. There has been too many years and people that have not had these issues.
I never said ethanol is the answer either, but I do think it is part of the solution.
Quit putting words in my mouth. I like ethanol, it isn't the end all, but we need to start somewhere to end our oil independence.
Farming is subsidized too, should we stop that?
no1chevyboy
New member
hay snowmo, sorry if you have no clue or are lieing and took offence to my statement in post 14 but i stand by it. even you said that there are issues with it, so im not lieing as for the trim package, i believe it was heavy chevy i could be wrong ? as for the example customers fuel problems this was a small four stroke that ran he filled up it ran four awile then died we did fuel sample and it was phaze seperated, then he brought another tank he filled at the same time and it was phazed, so if he was telling the truth the stations fuel was bad now you put that phazed fuel in a car, it will run and if people do like there suposed to and fill there cars at over 1/4 tank ,then they probably wouldnt even notice, most people only start caring when it doesnt start, others have gotten used to the ocasional miss because of this fuel, it has been here for years, but only in certain countys they say, i dont know for sure, now it is state wide and the problems have gotten worse, and as for the vent, it works best with a fuel valve too, and running your fuel out every time its going to sit for short time like during the week, but for storage i wouldnt advise it ,add fogging oil to gas run it empty drain the tank, fog the hell out of the motor how ever you do it. but i have never experienced fuel pushing past the needles in winter when its cold out side or even when its hot, but i believe it could happen when its hot out. and phatboyc i had a fuel sample that was open to the atmosphere, cloud and phaze in under 8 hrs the other day i could not believe it myself! but it happened no bs, it was hot and humid and the sample was on the work bench inside open shop